Today's most viewed Blair goes to Govan but finds his roots have gone It once stood proud, built upon seemingly immovable foundations. Now, mere memories sustain it.
Tony Blair found time yesterday to retrace his family roots in Glasgow, only to find the house where his father grew up is no more.
Making his first trip to Golspie Street in Govan, where his father, Leo, was raised by foster parents in the 1920s and 1930s, Mr Blair offered his reminiscences.
"I've never actually been here before, so I thought it would be nice to have a look. I remember for so much of my childhood hearing my dad talking about Golspie Street and being brought up here," he said.
"He used to tell the story of how he used to save up the lemonade bottles to go to the cinema."
Accompanied by Scottish Labour leader Jack McConnell, Mr Blair chatted to patrons in the street's Old Govan Arms pub.
Explaining his family's history in the area, the response was typically Glaswegian: "So you're here to pay his rent arrears then?"
The pair were not the only campaigning team found pounding Govan's streets yesterday. SNP leader Alex Salmond and his deputy Nicola Sturgeon - who is fighting the seat in next month's election - were also in the area.
Mr Salmond told The Herald Mr Blair appeared to have expected "cheering crowds" on his arrival.
"He's living in a bubble these days," was his interpretation of the Prime Minister's visit.
"Two-thirds of Scots do not trust Tony Blair on other issues because of his false claims about weapons of mass destruction, so there is no point in him indulging in his usual scaremongering attacks on the SNP," he added.
Mr Salmond and Ms Sturgeon had earlier taken advantage of the fine weather to tour the streets of Glasgow's Pollokshields, dropping in on a local newsagent and greengrocer. Approval,
of a sort, came from one housewife. "Oh, you're much nicer in the flesh," she told Mr Salmond.
| I’ve never been here before, so I thought it would be nice to take a look | |
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Meanwhile, Mr Blair and Mr McConnell found time to visit the BAE Systems Govan shipyard to meet apprentices working on the construction of HMS Diamond, a Type 45 destroyer being built for the Royal Navy.
The Prime Minister revealed that his father's foster father had also worked as a casual labourer at the shipyards in Govan.
"It's great for me to come back and see how much it's changed," he said.
The politicians were shown around the yard by Sheryl Dobie, 21, a sheet metal worker who recently completed her apprenticeship, and 22-year-old Ross Frew, a fourth-year apprentice.
Mr Blair told the group
of more than 60 apprentices the skills they were learning were vital for the country's future.
"One of the reasons why it's important we make sure that we keep this industry strong is that the skills we have are skills that, once lost, are very hard to recapture.
"These ships that replace our old ships for the Navy are going to be much bigger, much better equipped, much more technologically capable of doing the work.
"Getting these orders and keeping these orders here is important for Scotland, it's important for skills, it's important for the whole of the country because we need these ships to be sure our Armed Forces are properly equipped for the future."
Mr McConnell told the apprentices the training they received would help keep the Govan yard competitive in the future.
"You know as well as I do that we can't compete with lower wages and with the low costs that exists in some parts of the world.
"But, we can compete with our brains, we can compete with our hands, we can compete with our skills."
12:37am Saturday 14th April 2007  Print  Email this  CommentPosted by: cuchulainn on 8:54pm Fri 13 Apr 07 Shame on this man for coming here after what he and his people have put us through Shame on this man for coming here after what he and his people have put us through Posted by: James Brown, Ayr on 12:02am Sat 14 Apr 07 Don't see Gordon Jackson in the picture. Was he away doing the day job? Don't see Gordon Jackson in the picture. Was he away doing the day job? Posted by: Hannah Young, Glasgow on 12:37am Sat 14 Apr 07 No more modern apprenticeships at the Govan shipyards if Mr Sleeket Salmond becomes First Minister though!
No more of a lot of things, including extras like familiy holidays for us if they intoroduce that promised tax rise!
Hannah Young
Glasgow No more modern apprenticeships at the Govan shipyards if Mr Sleeket Salmond becomes First Minister though!
No more of a lot of things, including extras like familiy holidays for us if they intoroduce that promised tax rise!
Hannah Young
Glasgow Posted by: AM, Glasgow on 12:51am Sat 14 Apr 07 Quote: "Mr Salmond told The Herald Mr Blair appeared to have expected "cheering crowds" on his arrival."
Has Salmond added mind-reading skills to his CV now? Smug, smug, smug. Quote: "Mr Salmond told The Herald Mr Blair appeared to have expected "cheering crowds" on his arrival."
Has Salmond added mind-reading skills to his CV now? Smug, smug, smug. Posted by: Mark, East Kilbride on 12:55am Sat 14 Apr 07 Seems that the new party instructions are personal attacks on Alex Salmond Seems that the new party instructions are personal attacks on Alex Salmond Posted by: Frances on 1:04am Sat 14 Apr 07 No family holidays under the SNP? Please tell me, Hannah, what else have I missed in the SNP manifesto - a dastardly plan to reintroduce the Black Death? To decode the New Labour spin, the "tax rise" Hannah is referring to is the plan to abolish the council tax and REPLACE it with a local income tax - under which the amount people pay will be determined by what they can actually afford. Novel idea, I know, but it might just catch on. And then a few pensioners might just be able to take a modest holiday for the first time in a while.
By the way, Hannah, you forgot to drop in the key phrase "hard-working families like mine". So you wouldn't get full marks from Alastair Campbell after all. No family holidays under the SNP? Please tell me, Hannah, what else have I missed in the SNP manifesto - a dastardly plan to reintroduce the Black Death? To decode the New Labour spin, the "tax rise" Hannah is referring to is the plan to abolish the council tax and REPLACE it with a local income tax - under which the amount people pay will be determined by what they can actually afford. Novel idea, I know, but it might just catch on. And then a few pensioners might just be able to take a modest holiday for the first time in a while.
By the way, Hannah, you forgot to drop in the key phrase "hard-working families like mine". So you wouldn't get full marks from Alastair Campbell after all. Posted by: Joe on 1:05am Sat 14 Apr 07 Seems the SNP party line is to claim any dissenting opinion is Labour Party line. Seems the SNP party line is to claim any dissenting opinion is Labour Party line. Posted by: Jason Jack, Govan on 1:11am Sat 14 Apr 07 I thought Alex and Nicola were wonderful. I thought Blair was out of his league. I'll give you Golspie Street........as a betrayal present Blair! I thought Alex and Nicola were wonderful. I thought Blair was out of his league. I'll give you Golspie Street........as a betrayal present Blair! Posted by: AM, Glasgow on 1:23am Sat 14 Apr 07 Frances,
Yes, a local income tax would be easier on some pensioners, and that would be welcome, but it would hit working families very hard indeed. Remember it's not to be calculated per household any more, but per adult - like the poll tax.
People supporting the local income tax seem to keep forgetting about council tax rebates, the income-based method of making sure that the banded system doesn't hit those on lower incomes (including lower income pensioners) too hard.
Council tax isn't perfect, but it's overall much fairer than extra income tax. Plus neither the SNP's nor the LibDems' system will bring in as much revenue as council tax (at least before the 3% or 3.6% rate is raised) meaning that the shortfall will have to be funded from regular income tax - another blow for working families.
Finally Iain McMillan, Director of CBI Scotland says: “it is patently obvious that the break-even point at which taxpayers start to pay more in local income tax than they currently pay in council tax is substantially lower than that claimed by the local income tax's proponents”.
Oh, and finally finally, don't forget that water and sewerage charges are unchanged. Some people in areas where they're jointly billed with council tax wrongly assumed that the 3% would include them. Frances,
Yes, a local income tax would be easier on some pensioners, and that would be welcome, but it would hit working families very hard indeed. Remember it's not to be calculated per household any more, but per adult - like the poll tax.
People supporting the local income tax seem to keep forgetting about council tax rebates, the income-based method of making sure that the banded system doesn't hit those on lower incomes (including lower income pensioners) too hard.
Council tax isn't perfect, but it's overall much fairer than extra income tax. Plus neither the SNP's nor the LibDems' system will bring in as much revenue as council tax (at least before the 3% or 3.6% rate is raised) meaning that the shortfall will have to be funded from regular income tax - another blow for working families.
Finally Iain McMillan, Director of CBI Scotland says: “it is patently obvious that the break-even point at which taxpayers start to pay more in local income tax than they currently pay in council tax is substantially lower than that claimed by the local income tax's proponents”.
Oh, and finally finally, don't forget that water and sewerage charges are unchanged. Some people in areas where they're jointly billed with council tax wrongly assumed that the 3% would include them. Posted by: Frances on 1:30am Sat 14 Apr 07 AM, I profoundly disagree with your conclusions, but at least that's a slightly more spohisticated argument than the standard Labour spin that the SNP are planning a "tax rise" - just for the sheer fun of seeing people suffer, no doubt. AM, I profoundly disagree with your conclusions, but at least that's a slightly more spohisticated argument than the standard Labour spin that the SNP are planning a "tax rise" - just for the sheer fun of seeing people suffer, no doubt. Posted by: John on 1:42am Sat 14 Apr 07 AM continues his defence of the unfair Council Tax by suggesting that rebates solve the problems. He doesn't seem to know that over 200,000 Scots pensioners failed to claim the means tested rebates in 2003/4. Let me draw his attention to some comments from the recent Lyons report, "I therefore remain of the view that while changes to the design of council tax can have some impact on its overall progressiveness, it is likely that a property tax will remain regressive to income overall." In other words tinkering with the Council Tax doesn't fix it. AM continues his defence of the unfair Council Tax by suggesting that rebates solve the problems. He doesn't seem to know that over 200,000 Scots pensioners failed to claim the means tested rebates in 2003/4. Let me draw his attention to some comments from the recent Lyons report, "I therefore remain of the view that while changes to the design of council tax can have some impact on its overall progressiveness, it is likely that a property tax will remain regressive to income overall." In other words tinkering with the Council Tax doesn't fix it. Posted by: Jimmy, Glasgow on 1:49am Sat 14 Apr 07 mr cut and paste is here again I see plugging his usual anti SNP line.
Odd that you are way out of line with the rest of the population in their total hatred of the unfairness of council tax.
Taxing income is much fairer. Those who can afford it will pay more and those who cant will pay less or in the case of pensioners nothing.
You of course follow your usual tactic of quoting opinions as facts like those of mr mcmillan mr cut and paste is here again I see plugging his usual anti SNP line.
Odd that you are way out of line with the rest of the population in their total hatred of the unfairness of council tax.
Taxing income is much fairer. Those who can afford it will pay more and those who cant will pay less or in the case of pensioners nothing.
You of course follow your usual tactic of quoting opinions as facts like those of mr mcmillan Posted by: Frances on 1:55am Sat 14 Apr 07 AM, I should have read your comments more carefully before replying, because there are a couple of fairly obvious points that need to be challenged. First of all, the attempt to create an association in people's minds with the poll tax is pretty blatant, and it won't wash. The MAIN principle of the poll tax was that it was a flat-rate tax for the vast majority of people - in other words the polar opposite of how an income tax works. On that point, the council tax has much more in common with the poll tax, because it has far less association with people's ability to pay. Second, the idea that any governing party - SNP, Lib Dem, whoever - would use the parliament's power to vary the basic rate of income tax to cover any shortfall in revenue is deeply implausible, and I suspect in your heart of hearts you know that. That one's a complete red herring - and I couldn't help noticing you yourself [italic]almost[/italic] used that old Alastair Campbell favourite "hard-working families"! AM, I should have read your comments more carefully before replying, because there are a couple of fairly obvious points that need to be challenged. First of all, the attempt to create an association in people's minds with the poll tax is pretty blatant, and it won't wash. The MAIN principle of the poll tax was that it was a flat-rate tax for the vast majority of people - in other words the polar opposite of how an income tax works. On that point, the council tax has much more in common with the poll tax, because it has far less association with people's ability to pay. Second, the idea that any governing party - SNP, Lib Dem, whoever - would use the parliament's power to vary the basic rate of income tax to cover any shortfall in revenue is deeply implausible, and I suspect in your heart of hearts you know that. That one's a complete red herring - and I couldn't help noticing you yourself almost used that old Alastair Campbell favourite "hard-working families"! Posted by: Stephanie, East Kilbride on 2:06am Sat 14 Apr 07 Mr Blair has a lot to be worried about. Latest canvas returns show a major movement of voters away from labour to the SNP in their central Scotland heartland. It was significant that the other place Tony visited today was Paisley, where the sitting labour MSP's are under huge pressure.
You heard it here first. Mr Blair has a lot to be worried about. Latest canvas returns show a major movement of voters away from labour to the SNP in their central Scotland heartland. It was significant that the other place Tony visited today was Paisley, where the sitting labour MSP's are under huge pressure.
You heard it here first. Posted by: AM, Glasgow on 2:07am Sat 14 Apr 07 Frances,
Re. "tax rise" - maybe, although real tax rises would, I think, come not too much later. The SNP manifesto details far more expensive proposals than the other three (Labour's estimates: student loans £1.66bn, micro-renewables £1.83bn, citizen's pension £1.20bn etc). All their promises aren't going to be met just by the marginally above inflation block grant increases projected for the next four years.
Then we have the SNP's wish to lower corporation tax. That's a power I'd like to see, and most of the parties agree. But in the short term, before changes take effect, taxation is a zero sum game, and lowering corporation taxes without raising personal taxation is difficult. The SNP look set to spend even more than Labour (up to £2.4bn more per year) and in that environment keeping overall taxation at today's levels looks very unlikely.
I'm concerned that the SNP's making so many promises right now to bring people on-side and get into power that we'll end up in a very tight squeeze in two or three years.
Re. poll tax - I realise the LIT isn't a flat amount, but it is per person. A working couple each pay. A working couple with a grown up son or daughter living in pay three times.
I think we'll have to just agree to disagree on "ability to pay". I think a tax based on principal asset value is arguably fairer than income. Income minus expenditure is what defines ability to pay, and that's not what an income-only tax does. A property tax, while not a perfect measure of disposable income, is actually a better approximation.
I think I must have been unclear on the 3%/3.6%. The parliament currently has the power to raise tax only in the basic rate band (Scotland Act 1998). Both the SNP and LibDem plans require the higher band to be taxed too. So they'll need legal changes before the LIT could be introduced. Similarly if they want to exceed 3%, which the LibDems want to do from the get-go, and the SNP say they'll want to give councils the ability to do later. But given that the Institute of Fiscal Studies says about 5% is actually needed, we might see pressure to raise the percentage at the same time. I'm not saying they'd use it. That's impossible to predict.
Anyway, 2:00am. What am I doing still up? Goodnight. Frances,
Re. "tax rise" - maybe, although real tax rises would, I think, come not too much later. The SNP manifesto details far more expensive proposals than the other three (Labour's estimates: student loans £1.66bn, micro-renewables £1.83bn, citizen's pension £1.20bn etc). All their promises aren't going to be met just by the marginally above inflation block grant increases projected for the next four years.
Then we have the SNP's wish to lower corporation tax. That's a power I'd like to see, and most of the parties agree. But in the short term, before changes take effect, taxation is a zero sum game, and lowering corporation taxes without raising personal taxation is difficult. The SNP look set to spend even more than Labour (up to £2.4bn more per year) and in that environment keeping overall taxation at today's levels looks very unlikely.
I'm concerned that the SNP's making so many promises right now to bring people on-side and get into power that we'll end up in a very tight squeeze in two or three years.
Re. poll tax - I realise the LIT isn't a flat amount, but it is per person. A working couple each pay. A working couple with a grown up son or daughter living in pay three times.
I think we'll have to just agree to disagree on "ability to pay". I think a tax based on principal asset value is arguably fairer than income. Income minus expenditure is what defines ability to pay, and that's not what an income-only tax does. A property tax, while not a perfect measure of disposable income, is actually a better approximation.
I think I must have been unclear on the 3%/3.6%. The parliament currently has the power to raise tax only in the basic rate band (Scotland Act 1998). Both the SNP and LibDem plans require the higher band to be taxed too. So they'll need legal changes before the LIT could be introduced. Similarly if they want to exceed 3%, which the LibDems want to do from the get-go, and the SNP say they'll want to give councils the ability to do later. But given that the Institute of Fiscal Studies says about 5% is actually needed, we might see pressure to raise the percentage at the same time. I'm not saying they'd use it. That's impossible to predict.
Anyway, 2:00am. What am I doing still up? Goodnight. Posted by: Edward, Edinburgh on 2:10am Sat 14 Apr 07 I seem to recall that Blair denied his roots!
The now infamous press breifing, where he was aked if he was Scottish, he hummed and hawed and said that he lived in England
The guy is just an embaressment , just as his glove puppet Joke McConnel. How ironic that this has to be the only time Blair has visited Scotland so often, but cant actually do a walkabout through any Scottish city as he is that unpopular, which is why Blair/Brown/ McConnell stick to 'safe' factory/plant/rig visits I seem to recall that Blair denied his roots!
The now infamous press breifing, where he was aked if he was Scottish, he hummed and hawed and said that he lived in England
The guy is just an embaressment , just as his glove puppet Joke McConnel. How ironic that this has to be the only time Blair has visited Scotland so often, but cant actually do a walkabout through any Scottish city as he is that unpopular, which is why Blair/Brown/ McConnell stick to 'safe' factory/plant/rig visits Posted by: somerferg, Oz on 2:17am Sat 14 Apr 07
Oh quelle surprise ! BLiar suddenly remembers his "Scottish" roots. Well here's hoping his "Scottish" roots remember how badly he and his lapdog wee Joke have been for them and Scotland over the last few years on May 3rd.
Oh quelle surprise ! BLiar suddenly remembers his "Scottish" roots. Well here's hoping his "Scottish" roots remember how badly he and his lapdog wee Joke have been for them and Scotland over the last few years on May 3rd. Posted by: Zorbathejock on 5:13am Sat 14 Apr 07 "I've never actually been here before". " It's great for me to come back and see how much it's changed" So who says Blair's a liar? "I've never actually been here before". " It's great for me to come back and see how much it's changed" So who says Blair's a liar? Posted by: Maxie, Clydebank on 6:47am Sat 14 Apr 07 Hanah!
You might havea lot of female names, but please dont demean yourself by bringing nationality into it!
To pretend that you are something that you aren't is demeaning enough in itself. To pretend that you are anumber of females is frankly disgusting!
Best wishes in your prejudiced British nationalist and sexist views! Hanah!
You might havea lot of female names, but please dont demean yourself by bringing nationality into it!
To pretend that you are something that you aren't is demeaning enough in itself. To pretend that you are anumber of females is frankly disgusting!
Best wishes in your prejudiced British nationalist and sexist views! Posted by: Ron Macuistean, Isle of Tiree on 6:50am Sat 14 Apr 07 Hanna Young wrote: "No more modern apprenticeships at the Govan shipyards if Mr Sleeket Salmond becomes First Minister though!" Just think of Portglasgow and Fergusons. No more shipyard because Joke McConnel and his band sent all the work to Poland
Hanna Young wrote: "No more modern apprenticeships at the Govan shipyards if Mr Sleeket Salmond becomes First Minister though!" Just think of Portglasgow and Fergusons. No more shipyard because Joke McConnel and his band sent all the work to Poland
Posted by: donald anderson, glasgow on 7:04am Sat 14 Apr 07 Aye Bliar and co must be proud of what he had done to Govan. Just wait till the EBC move in for for their culture shock. The West End it aint. Aye Bliar and co must be proud of what he had done to Govan. Just wait till the EBC move in for for their culture shock. The West End it aint. Posted by: Vera Smart on 8:07am Sat 14 Apr 07 [quote][bold]donald anderson[/bold] wrote:
Aye Bliar and co must be proud of what he had done to Govan. Just wait till the EBC move in for for their culture shock. The West End it aint.[/quote] The EBC?
As for the rest you are correct. Which is why I live in the West End :p . donald anderson wrote:
Aye Bliar and co must be proud of what he had done to Govan. Just wait till the EBC move in for for their culture shock. The West End it aint. The EBC?
As for the rest you are correct. Which is why I live in the West End :p . Posted by: James Gray, Germany on 8:40am Sat 14 Apr 07 After independence we should name a street in Govan after Tony Blair. He has after all done so much for the SNP cause. Keep coming Tony! After independence we should name a street in Govan after Tony Blair. He has after all done so much for the SNP cause. Keep coming Tony! Posted by: Cragie, falkirk on 10:16am Sat 14 Apr 07 it seems tony has done more for independence than anyone else. it could be true, what has alex salmond done for it? he ran away to london cos he lost in scotland!! i wonder what will happen after may when the SNP are rejected again.
What has tony done for scotland=delvolution, high employment, stable economy, pensioner winter fuel allowance, preternaty and maternaty leave increased for women and maternaty leave introduced for males, to name just a few. If scotland was in such a bad state why do labour still look likely to win the election?? it seems tony has done more for independence than anyone else. it could be true, what has alex salmond done for it? he ran away to london cos he lost in scotland!! i wonder what will happen after may when the SNP are rejected again.
What has tony done for scotland=delvolution, high employment, stable economy, pensioner winter fuel allowance, preternaty and maternaty leave increased for women and maternaty leave introduced for males, to name just a few. If scotland was in such a bad state why do labour still look likely to win the election?? Posted by: bob mckay, glasgow on 10:23am Sat 14 Apr 07 The poorest pensioner who needs help with personal care gets the equivalent of a salary of £28000. Thats right add it up; having in some cases never worked a day or contributed a penny thats the maths...Pension Credit plus Attendance Allowance plus average Rent/Mortgage/ Council Tax/ Prescriptions/Travel ...how can we the working age people support these amounts?? We should be bankrupt as a country! It makes me sick to see all the parties claiming to support the poor pensioner- there is no such thing!!!! Not one, which is why the grasping grey haired demands for "free" everything by virtue of reaching 65 are disgusting. By making it a local income tax, every greedy granny can continue to give away small fortunes( we all know a grey coffindodger who says" ive so much each week i dont know what to do with it.."), bank thousands on state benefits every year all the while hiding savings acccounts and keeping the family pile for the next lot of greying ghouls. And dont give me " i paid my contributions.... YOU DIDNT, you paid for your parents pension who got one free without any contributions, each generation pays the one befores bill.
Remember in chitty chitty bang bang where kids were banned and grotesque grandpas lived selfish lives? Thats scotland in 15 years..im off to another country; last person with a work ethic paying tax honestly in full please turn out the lights when you leave. Ps Why 65? Do legs collapse, lungs stop then? Average life expectancy is 78, work should be expected to at least 70, oh and i know its 63 in shettleston but walk thru shettleston thats not because of poverty, try shooting stabbing illegal drug death, **** and booze..just dont tell the EC who subsidise scotlands adddictions and violence. The tories were right after all we have become benefit junkies!!! The poorest pensioner who needs help with personal care gets the equivalent of a salary of £28000. Thats right add it up; having in some cases never worked a day or contributed a penny thats the maths...Pension Credit plus Attendance Allowance plus average Rent/Mortgage/ Council Tax/ Prescriptions/Travel ...how can we the working age people support these amounts?? We should be bankrupt as a country! It makes me sick to see all the parties claiming to support the poor pensioner- there is no such thing!!!! Not one, which is why the grasping grey haired demands for "free" everything by virtue of reaching 65 are disgusting. By making it a local income tax, every greedy granny can continue to give away small fortunes( we all know a grey coffindodger who says" ive so much each week i dont know what to do with it.."), bank thousands on state benefits every year all the while hiding savings acccounts and keeping the family pile for the next lot of greying ghouls. And dont give me " i paid my contributions.... YOU DIDNT, you paid for your parents pension who got one free without any contributions, each generation pays the one befores bill.
Remember in chitty chitty bang bang where kids were banned and grotesque grandpas lived selfish lives? Thats scotland in 15 years..im off to another country; last person with a work ethic paying tax honestly in full please turn out the lights when you leave. Ps Why 65? Do legs collapse, lungs stop then? Average life expectancy is 78, work should be expected to at least 70, oh and i know its 63 in shettleston but walk thru shettleston thats not because of poverty, try shooting stabbing illegal drug death, **** and booze..just dont tell the EC who subsidise scotlands adddictions and violence. The tories were right after all we have become benefit junkies!!! Posted by: Alex Porter, Madrid on 11:09am Sat 14 Apr 07 # James Brown,
Is that Gordon Jackson from The Professionals? Now he was a Glaswegian.
# Francis,
Please don't encourage AM. He is the Alexander sisters' teddy bear.
Endlessly making up numbers like Wendy and witless, headline-grabbing mantras like Douglas. Then at night, after a long day toiling for his beloved GREAT Britain the chosen one snuggles up, gets reassurances about his immense calling and then sleeps sound in the knowledge that God will reward him in that great Westminister parliament in the sky. # James Brown,
Is that Gordon Jackson from The Professionals? Now he was a Glaswegian.
# Francis,
Please don't encourage AM. He is the Alexander sisters' teddy bear.
Endlessly making up numbers like Wendy and witless, headline-grabbing mantras like Douglas. Then at night, after a long day toiling for his beloved GREAT Britain the chosen one snuggles up, gets reassurances about his immense calling and then sleeps sound in the knowledge that God will reward him in that great Westminister parliament in the sky. Posted by: Pete, NZ on 11:40am Sat 14 Apr 07 Frances interesting the ‘hard-working families’ line. We had the ‘every hard-working New Zealand family’ over and over until it was overtaking ‘at the end of the day’ as a political sound bite. I bet ever nation and every language has this “look we have empathy with the ‘hard working families’” but usually it comes from opposition parties trying to win power. At times Labour’s campaign makes them look their in opposition - just rubbishing the other parties. Frances interesting the ‘hard-working families’ line. We had the ‘every hard-working New Zealand family’ over and over until it was overtaking ‘at the end of the day’ as a political sound bite. I bet ever nation and every language has this “look we have empathy with the ‘hard working families’” but usually it comes from opposition parties trying to win power. At times Labour’s campaign makes them look their in opposition - just rubbishing the other parties. Posted by: Brian Blessed, Glasgow on 1:00pm Sat 14 Apr 07 James Gray@ 8:40am: There is already a street named in anticipation of the mood of the nation after Blair leaves: it's called Merryland Street.
Interesting that Govan's local Labour candidate was nowhere to be seen yesterday. I wonder why confirmed liar and part-time MSP Gordon Jackson was hidden away from the press? James Gray@ 8:40am: There is already a street named in anticipation of the mood of the nation after Blair leaves: it's called Merryland Street.
Interesting that Govan's local Labour candidate was nowhere to be seen yesterday. I wonder why confirmed liar and part-time MSP Gordon Jackson was hidden away from the press? Posted by: Frank McBride, Lusitania on 1:15pm Sat 14 Apr 07 Not a very political comment, but I was interested to find TB remark that it was interesting to see how Golspie St. had changed.
Did he have a previous incarnation as his grandfather?
The shear, indefinable stupidity of the man!!! A clear confirmation of mendacity or delusion.
Eucation.Education,Education equally applies to the outgoing LIB/LAB administration.
Who in his/her right mind would vote for deuded liars.
Not a very political comment, but I was interested to find TB remark that it was interesting to see how Golspie St. had changed.
Did he have a previous incarnation as his grandfather?
The shear, indefinable stupidity of the man!!! A clear confirmation of mendacity or delusion.
Eucation.Education,Education equally applies to the outgoing LIB/LAB administration.
Who in his/her right mind would vote for deuded liars.
Posted by: Alex Porter on 1:22pm Sat 14 Apr 07 Question about bookmakers.
Strange one this:
1) Some bookies talked about giving evens to the SNP and then said that enough was enough, they had to shorten the odds. 2) Opinion polls offer no consolation to the unionist press so they run a story about the Bookies saying the election was too close to call 3) Yesterday I asked my friend on Easter Rd, Edinburgh to put a bet on SNP 5/6 (Ladbrokes) for me. She was told that voting on the election had been suspended on the instruction of the PR department.
Can anyone tell me what in the h ell is going on? This is the strangest election yet. Maybe Rankin can weave a murder plot into it? Maybe the bookies have been told that Labour has hired Mugabe to turn the tide. Question about bookmakers.
Strange one this:
1) Some bookies talked about giving evens to the SNP and then said that enough was enough, they had to shorten the odds. 2) Opinion polls offer no consolation to the unionist press so they run a story about the Bookies saying the election was too close to call 3) Yesterday I asked my friend on Easter Rd, Edinburgh to put a bet on SNP 5/6 (Ladbrokes) for me. She was told that voting on the election had been suspended on the instruction of the PR department.
Can anyone tell me what in the h ell is going on? This is the strangest election yet. Maybe Rankin can weave a murder plot into it? Maybe the bookies have been told that Labour has hired Mugabe to turn the tide. Posted by: Brian Blessed, Glasgow on 1:42pm Sat 14 Apr 07 Alex: To try and answer your points AFAIK: 1) Bookies will shorten odds even if the polls etc haven't changed if a large amount of cash is placed on a result, e.g. SNP to win. As more money is placed, the odds become tighter - Evens to 5/6. Basically reducing their risk. 2) I agree, however in mitigation the press usually run an 'offbeat' piece during the elections looking at the odds. Though I agree the timing is suspect to say the least. 3) A lot of these 'comedy' bets are limited availability and open and close in a matter of days/hours. The bookies make up odds, make up a press release and get a few column inches of free publiciity. Hacks are desperate to fill column inches, this provides some easy copy to fill the paper. The odds are only available to the public for a day or so.
This is all subject to me not being a betting expert! But is what I have read/heard in the past.
www.politicalbetting.com is a good, impartial site for odds, discussion etc. Paddy Power has SNP at 8/15, Lab at 11/8, Libs 33/1, Tory 100/1. Betfair is more generous to the SNP, but is not a 'normal' bookies - more a broker of odds. Alex: To try and answer your points AFAIK: 1) Bookies will shorten odds even if the polls etc haven't changed if a large amount of cash is placed on a result, e.g. SNP to win. As more money is placed, the odds become tighter - Evens to 5/6. Basically reducing their risk. 2) I agree, however in mitigation the press usually run an 'offbeat' piece during the elections looking at the odds. Though I agree the timing is suspect to say the least. 3) A lot of these 'comedy' bets are limited availability and open and close in a matter of days/hours. The bookies make up odds, make up a press release and get a few column inches of free publiciity. Hacks are desperate to fill column inches, this provides some easy copy to fill the paper. The odds are only available to the public for a day or so.
This is all subject to me not being a betting expert! But is what I have read/heard in the past.
www.politicalbetting.com is a good, impartial site for odds, discussion etc. Paddy Power has SNP at 8/15, Lab at 11/8, Libs 33/1, Tory 100/1. Betfair is more generous to the SNP, but is not a 'normal' bookies - more a broker of odds. Posted by: Alex Porter, Madrid on 2:35pm Sat 14 Apr 07 Cheers Brian,
Bets are normally available right up till polling day. My point about Ladbrokes suspending bets on the instruction of the PR department does set alarm bells ringing. It suggests there is something afoot which is not about risk and probability, don't you think?
Baffled about this. Cheers Brian,
Bets are normally available right up till polling day. My point about Ladbrokes suspending bets on the instruction of the PR department does set alarm bells ringing. It suggests there is something afoot which is not about risk and probability, don't you think?
Baffled about this. Posted by: Brian Blessed, Glasgow on 2:47pm Sat 14 Apr 07 Alex: You could be right, but I tend to the cynical PR guff explanation rather than political motivation. Though Ladbrokes and Wm Hills are known donors to the Labour party via sponsoring conference events.
The fact Paddy Power have much worse odds than Ladbrokes were offering on the SNP suggests this was a London operation undertaken without much thought or research. There were a few comments on politicalbetting.com remarking on their generosity at the time. Alex: You could be right, but I tend to the cynical PR guff explanation rather than political motivation. Though Ladbrokes and Wm Hills are known donors to the Labour party via sponsoring conference events.
The fact Paddy Power have much worse odds than Ladbrokes were offering on the SNP suggests this was a London operation undertaken without much thought or research. There were a few comments on politicalbetting.com remarking on their generosity at the time. Posted by: doonhamer, Dumfries on 2:52pm Sat 14 Apr 07 I think the real question left unanswered here is whether or not Blair paid off the rent arrears.
Who is running the Labour camnpaign. Send the Prime Minister to visit a house that doesn't exist anymore? Does anyone else find it ironic that the family house is in the same position as all his previous promises?
Mr. Blair, please do not hesitate to visit us again. Many opportunities for sightseeing from now until May 3. Please visit as many Labour held seats as you can, the SNP is counting on you. I think the real question left unanswered here is whether or not Blair paid off the rent arrears.
Who is running the Labour camnpaign. Send the Prime Minister to visit a house that doesn't exist anymore? Does anyone else find it ironic that the family house is in the same position as all his previous promises?
Mr. Blair, please do not hesitate to visit us again. Many opportunities for sightseeing from now until May 3. Please visit as many Labour held seats as you can, the SNP is counting on you. Posted by: Tom McAlister on 3:38pm Sat 14 Apr 07 .
Brian Blessed 1:00pm, today.
Obviously Mr Jackson in both his professional capacities has the intelligence to realise that due to circumstances it is not in his best interests to be seen associating with accused criminals outwith his places of beezness before judgement day arrives. It would do his credibility or prospects of sucess no good, what so ever.
. .
Brian Blessed 1:00pm, today.
Obviously Mr Jackson in both his professional capacities has the intelligence to realise that due to circumstances it is not in his best interests to be seen associating with accused criminals outwith his places of beezness before judgement day arrives. It would do his credibility or prospects of sucess no good, what so ever.
. Posted by: d, Dumfries on 4:06pm Sat 14 Apr 07 If Scotland ever needed a clearer reason for independence, then this article should help even the feartiest numpty.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/news.html?in_article_id=448528&in_page_id=1770 If Scotland ever needed a clearer reason for independence, then this article should help even the feartiest numpty.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/news.html?in_article_id=448528&in_page_id=1770 Posted by: WRM, San Diego, CA on 5:16pm Sat 14 Apr 07 [quote][bold]AM[/bold] wrote:
Frances,
Re. \"tax rise\" - maybe, although real tax rises would, I think, come not too much later. The SNP manifesto details far more expensive proposals than the other three (Labour\'s estimates: student loans £1.66bn, micro-renewables £1.83bn, citizen\'s pension £1.20bn etc). All their promises aren\'t going to be met just by the marginally above inflation block grant increases projected for the next four years.
Then we have the SNP\'s wish to lower corporation tax. That\'s a power I\'d like to see, and most of the parties agree. But in the short term, before changes take effect, taxation is a zero sum game, and lowering corporation taxes without raising personal taxation is difficult. The SNP look set to spend even more than Labour (up to £2.4bn more per year) and in that environment keeping overall taxation at today\'s levels looks very unlikely.
I\'m concerned that the SNP\'s making so many promises right now to bring people on-side and get into power that we\'ll end up in a very tight squeeze in two or three years.
Re. poll tax - I realise the LIT isn\'t a flat amount, but it is per person. A working couple each pay. A working couple with a grown up son or daughter living in pay three times.
I think we\'ll have to just agree to disagree on \"ability to pay\". I think a tax based on principal asset value is arguably fairer than income. Income minus expenditure is what defines ability to pay, and that\'s not what an income-only tax does. A property tax, while not a perfect measure of disposable income, is actually a better approximation.
I think I must have been unclear on the 3%/3.6%. The parliament currently has the power to raise tax only in the basic rate band (Scotland Act 1998). Both the SNP and LibDem plans require the higher band to be taxed too. So they\'ll need legal changes before the LIT could be introduced. Similarly if they want to exceed 3%, which the LibDems want to do from the get-go, and the SNP say they\'ll want to give councils the ability to do later. But given that the Institute of Fiscal Studies says about 5% is actually needed, we might see pressure to raise the percentage at the same time. I\'m not saying they\'d use it. That\'s impossible to predict.
Anyway, 2:00am. What am I doing still up? Goodnight.[/quote] I'm an expat, so correct me if I'm wrong, but is this how the current system works?
Imagine two identical houses, side by side. One house contains three adults each earning 15,000 pounds - a total of 45,000 coming in. With the current system, the council tax on the house is, say, 900 pounds for the year, so they each chip in 300 pounds.
Next door is a single person also making 15,000 pounds, and he council tax is identical to her neighbours. She pays 900 pounds all on her own.
How is it "fair" that a single individual with the same income and same house has to pay three times the amount one person next door is paying. The field is levelled with some kind of an income tax - each individual would be paying the same amount, whether they live alone or not.
Am I missing something? AM wrote:
Frances,
Re. \"tax rise\" - maybe, although real tax rises would, I think, come not too much later. The SNP manifesto details far more expensive proposals than the other three (Labour\'s estimates: student loans £1.66bn, micro-renewables £1.83bn, citizen\'s pension £1.20bn etc). All their promises aren\'t going to be met just by the marginally above inflation block grant increases projected for the next four years.
Then we have the SNP\'s wish to lower corporation tax. That\'s a power I\'d like to see, and most of the parties agree. But in the short term, before changes take effect, taxation is a zero sum game, and lowering corporation taxes without raising personal taxation is difficult. The SNP look set to spend even more than Labour (up to £2.4bn more per year) and in that environment keeping overall taxation at today\'s levels looks very unlikely.
I\'m concerned that the SNP\'s making so many promises right now to bring people on-side and get into power that we\'ll end up in a very tight squeeze in two or three years.
Re. poll tax - I realise the LIT isn\'t a flat amount, but it is per person. A working couple each pay. A working couple with a grown up son or daughter living in pay three times.
I think we\'ll have to just agree to disagree on \"ability to pay\". I think a tax based on principal asset value is arguably fairer than income. Income minus expenditure is what defines ability to pay, and that\'s not what an income-only tax does. A property tax, while not a perfect measure of disposable income, is actually a better approximation.
I think I must have been unclear on the 3%/3.6%. The parliament currently has the power to raise tax only in the basic rate band (Scotland Act 1998). Both the SNP and LibDem plans require the higher band to be taxed too. So they\'ll need legal changes before the LIT could be introduced. Similarly if they want to exceed 3%, which the LibDems want to do from the get-go, and the SNP say they\'ll want to give councils the ability to do later. But given that the Institute of Fiscal Studies says about 5% is actually needed, we might see pressure to raise the percentage at the same time. I\'m not saying they\'d use it. That\'s impossible to predict.
Anyway, 2:00am. What am I doing still up? Goodnight. I'm an expat, so correct me if I'm wrong, but is this how the current system works?
Imagine two identical houses, side by side. One house contains three adults each earning 15,000 pounds - a total of 45,000 coming in. With the current system, the council tax on the house is, say, 900 pounds for the year, so they each chip in 300 pounds.
Next door is a single person also making 15,000 pounds, and he council tax is identical to her neighbours. She pays 900 pounds all on her own.
How is it "fair" that a single individual with the same income and same house has to pay three times the amount one person next door is paying. The field is levelled with some kind of an income tax - each individual would be paying the same amount, whether they live alone or not.
Am I missing something? Posted by: craigie, falkirk on 5:37pm Sat 14 Apr 07 [quote]Imagine two identical houses, side by side. One house contains three adults each earning 15,000 pounds - a total of 45,000 coming in. With the current system, the council tax on the house is, say, 900 pounds for the year, so they each chip in 300 pounds.
Next door is a single person also making 15,000 pounds, and he council tax is identical to her neighbours. She pays 900 pounds all on her own.
How is it "fair" that a single individual with the same income and same house has to pay three times the amount one person next door is paying.[/quote]
Imaging 2 houses side by side, one is unemployed and lifes off either pension, parents handout, savings ie no income so pays no pay, next door two hard wroking parents earning average scottish wage pays 3 pence more in the pound to pay for the local services for themselves and next door.
how is this fair!!
There is no fair way to fund local councils, one based on ability to pay is best, not one that has a 3p flat level,and doesnt take into account peoples saving and bonuses, that sounds a little like a poll tax!
Imagine two identical houses, side by side. One house contains three adults each earning 15,000 pounds - a total of 45,000 coming in. With the current system, the council tax on the house is, say, 900 pounds for the year, so they each chip in 300 pounds.
Next door is a single person also making 15,000 pounds, and he council tax is identical to her neighbours. She pays 900 pounds all on her own.
How is it "fair" that a single individual with the same income and same house has to pay three times the amount one person next door is paying.
Imaging 2 houses side by side, one is unemployed and lifes off either pension, parents handout, savings ie no income so pays no pay, next door two hard wroking parents earning average scottish wage pays 3 pence more in the pound to pay for the local services for themselves and next door.
how is this fair!!
There is no fair way to fund local councils, one based on ability to pay is best, not one that has a 3p flat level,and doesnt take into account peoples saving and bonuses, that sounds a little like a poll tax!
Posted by: WRM, San Diego, CA on 5:42pm Sat 14 Apr 07 [quote][bold]craigie[/bold] wrote:
[quote]Imagine two identical houses, side by side. One house contains three adults each earning 15,000 pounds - a total of 45,000 coming in. With the current system, the council tax on the house is, say, 900 pounds for the year, so they each chip in 300 pounds.
Next door is a single person also making 15,000 pounds, and he council tax is identical to her neighbours. She pays 900 pounds all on her own.
How is it \"fair\" that a single individual with the same income and same house has to pay three times the amount one person next door is paying.[/quote]
Imaging 2 houses side by side, one is unemployed and lifes off either pension, parents handout, savings ie no income so pays no pay, next door two hard wroking parents earning average scottish wage pays 3 pence more in the pound to pay for the local services for themselves and next door.
how is this fair!!
There is no fair way to fund local councils, one based on ability to pay is best, not one that has a 3p flat level,and doesnt take into account peoples saving and bonuses, that sounds a little like a poll tax!
[/quote] A 3p income tax rate WOULD be based on ability to pay - if you make more income, you pay more. You're perverting the notion of 'flat tax', which means everyone pays the same amount, as opposed to a flat rate, where individuals would pay based on their earnings.
And congratulations for using the phrase "hard working". I guess that means the pensioner who did work to earn their pension in retirement didn't. craigie wrote:
Imagine two identical houses, side by side. One house contains three adults each earning 15,000 pounds - a total of 45,000 coming in. With the current system, the council tax on the house is, say, 900 pounds for the year, so they each chip in 300 pounds.
Next door is a single person also making 15,000 pounds, and he council tax is identical to her neighbours. She pays 900 pounds all on her own.
How is it \"fair\" that a single individual with the same income and same house has to pay three times the amount one person next door is paying.
Imaging 2 houses side by side, one is unemployed and lifes off either pension, parents handout, savings ie no income so pays no pay, next door two hard wroking parents earning average scottish wage pays 3 pence more in the pound to pay for the local services for themselves and next door.
how is this fair!!
There is no fair way to fund local councils, one based on ability to pay is best, not one that has a 3p flat level,and doesnt take into account peoples saving and bonuses, that sounds a little like a poll tax!
A 3p income tax rate WOULD be based on ability to pay - if you make more income, you pay more. You're perverting the notion of 'flat tax', which means everyone pays the same amount, as opposed to a flat rate, where individuals would pay based on their earnings.
And congratulations for using the phrase "hard working". I guess that means the pensioner who did work to earn their pension in retirement didn't. Posted by: WRM, San Diego, CA on 6:07pm Sat 14 Apr 07 [quote][bold]craigie[/bold] wrote:
[quote]Imagine two identical houses, side by side. One house contains three adults each earning 15,000 pounds - a total of 45,000 coming in. With the current system, the council tax on the house is, say, 900 pounds for the year, so they each chip in 300 pounds.
Next door is a single person also making 15,000 pounds, and he council tax is identical to her neighbours. She pays 900 pounds all on her own.
How is it "fair" that a single individual with the same income and same house has to pay three times the amount one person next door is paying.[/quote]
Imaging 2 houses side by side, one is unemployed and lifes off either pension, parents handout, savings ie no income so pays no pay, next door two hard wroking parents earning average scottish wage pays 3 pence more in the pound to pay for the local services for themselves and next door.
how is this fair!!
There is no fair way to fund local councils, one based on ability to pay is best, not one that has a 3p flat level,and doesnt take into account peoples saving and bonuses, that sounds a little like a poll tax!
[/quote] Also - as you well know, a "poll tax" is a tax that every individual pays, and everyone pays the same amount - it's a 'per head' tax, regardless of whether you have no income or a lot, no savings or a lot, no pension or a big one. You say that the local income tax idea would mean that some people would not pay anything - therefore a local income tax is NOT a poll tax.
Nice try to get that scary term into the debate, though. craigie wrote:
Imagine two identical houses, side by side. One house contains three adults each earning 15,000 pounds - a total of 45,000 coming in. With the current system, the council tax on the house is, say, 900 pounds for the year, so they each chip in 300 pounds.
Next door is a single person also making 15,000 pounds, and he council tax is identical to her neighbours. She pays 900 pounds all on her own.
How is it "fair" that a single individual with the same income and same house has to pay three times the amount one person next door is paying.
Imaging 2 houses side by side, one is unemployed and lifes off either pension, parents handout, savings ie no income so pays no pay, next door two hard wroking parents earning average scottish wage pays 3 pence more in the pound to pay for the local services for themselves and next door.
how is this fair!!
There is no fair way to fund local councils, one based on ability to pay is best, not one that has a 3p flat level,and doesnt take into account peoples saving and bonuses, that sounds a little like a poll tax!
Also - as you well know, a "poll tax" is a tax that every individual pays, and everyone pays the same amount - it's a 'per head' tax, regardless of whether you have no income or a lot, no savings or a lot, no pension or a big one. You say that the local income tax idea would mean that some people would not pay anything - therefore a local income tax is NOT a poll tax.
Nice try to get that scary term into the debate, though. Posted by: Andy, Scotland on 8:05pm Sat 14 Apr 07 The people of Govan (my father's birth place) should give Blair and his New labour cronies a hammering in the coming elections. War criminals deserve no support. The people of Govan (my father's birth place) should give Blair and his New labour cronies a hammering in the coming elections. War criminals deserve no support. Posted by: george paterson, Inverurie on 8:05pm Sat 14 Apr 07 At the Scottish Pensioners Assembly in Stirling on Thursday the pensioners (and they are the ones who will definitely vote) were asked, Which do you prefer? The concil tax or an income tax based on ability to pay. By over 86% they voted for the latter. On Trident they voted down Trident by an even larger percentage! Makes you think! If AM/AM2 is up and about check my comments re Blair and the legality of the Iraq War. On this one this guy turns my stomach. Only those with a poisoned sense of justice could claim that Blair's illegal invasion of Iraq was a move agreed with HMV in America. Strange how all the Neo Cons are going off the radar screens or being found out for doing the "Labour Thing", cheating or lying in high places with lovely willing ladies. Oops, I forgot AM/AM2 has a thing going for him! It's his computer. He handles it well but invariably gets the wrong response! Time he went to see endangered species in a Zoo! Those he fawns over seem to be heading that way too! At the Scottish Pensioners Assembly in Stirling on Thursday the pensioners (and they are the ones who will definitely vote) were asked, Which do you prefer? The concil tax or an income tax based on ability to pay. By over 86% they voted for the latter. On Trident they voted down Trident by an even larger percentage! Makes you think! If AM/AM2 is up and about check my comments re Blair and the legality of the Iraq War. On this one this guy turns my stomach. Only those with a poisoned sense of justice could claim that Blair's illegal invasion of Iraq was a move agreed with HMV in America. Strange how all the Neo Cons are going off the radar screens or being found out for doing the "Labour Thing", cheating or lying in high places with lovely willing ladies. Oops, I forgot AM/AM2 has a thing going for him! It's his computer. He handles it well but invariably gets the wrong response! Time he went to see endangered species in a Zoo! Those he fawns over seem to be heading that way too! Posted by: george paterson, Inverurie on 8:12pm Sat 14 Apr 07 Correction! Line eight. After "was" insert "other than". Correction! Line eight. After "was" insert "other than". Posted by: Robbie, New Zealand on 12:24am Sun 15 Apr 07 Interesting to see a US paper discussing the SNP and Scottish election - still no mention in NZ papers or TV.
IWright posted the link on another forum but one has to register (about 2 mins) to access the articles.
Have taken the liberty of taking an extract AM
Chicago Tribune April 14, 2007
IN NEW ‘EU’ SMALLER ID BETTER.
The club formed 50 years ago to boost Europe's big nations is benefiting their little neighbors the most
France, Britain and Germany are "dinosaurs," said Krisztian Szabados, a political consultant in Budapest. "In the EU, it's better to be small."
The EU has made Europe so secure for small nations that they don't even have to join to enjoy its benefits and protections. Switzerland (pop. 7.5 million) and Norway (pop. 4.6 million) are prime examples of this.
How small is too small?
Scotland, with a population of 5 million, has taken note.
Opinion polls show a majority of Scots think a divorce from the United Kingdom might not be such a bad idea. The polls also indicate that the Scottish National Party, which favors independence, is likely to win control of the Scottish Parliament in local elections in May.
Although the break-up of Britain remains a long shot, Brady, from the Center for European Reform, said the idea has gained traction in Scotland only because the EU offers the Scots a protective "cushion."
"It's a place where they could wield influence outside the UK," he said. Interesting to see a US paper discussing the SNP and Scottish election - still no mention in NZ papers or TV.
IWright posted the link on another forum but one has to register (about 2 mins) to access the articles.
Have taken the liberty of taking an extract AM
Chicago Tribune April 14, 2007
IN NEW ‘EU’ SMALLER ID BETTER.
The club formed 50 years ago to boost Europe's big nations is benefiting their little neighbors the most
France, Britain and Germany are "dinosaurs," said Krisztian Szabados, a political consultant in Budapest. "In the EU, it's better to be small."
The EU has made Europe so secure for small nations that they don't even have to join to enjoy its benefits and protections. Switzerland (pop. 7.5 million) and Norway (pop. 4.6 million) are prime examples of this.
How small is too small?
Scotland, with a population of 5 million, has taken note.
Opinion polls show a majority of Scots think a divorce from the United Kingdom might not be such a bad idea. The polls also indicate that the Scottish National Party, which favors independence, is likely to win control of the Scottish Parliament in local elections in May.
Although the break-up of Britain remains a long shot, Brady, from the Center for European Reform, said the idea has gained traction in Scotland only because the EU offers the Scots a protective "cushion."
"It's a place where they could wield influence outside the UK," he said. Posted by: Paul Bret, Glasgow Strathbungo on 8:18am Sun 15 Apr 07 Why oh why is Alex Salmond so smug all he time.And I would also like do know where Gordon (part time Jackson) is again.[italic]italic[/italic] Why oh why is Alex Salmond so smug all he time.And I would also like do know where Gordon (part time Jackson) is again. Posted by: Realbairn, Abroad on 3:51pm Sun 15 Apr 07 [quote][bold]Cragie[/bold] wrote:
it seems tony has done more for independence than anyone else. it could be true, what has alex salmond done for it? he ran away to london cos he lost in scotland!! i wonder what will happen after may when the SNP are rejected again. What has tony done for scotland=delvolution, high employment, stable economy, pensioner winter fuel allowance, preternaty and maternaty leave increased for women and maternaty leave introduced for males, to name just a few. If scotland was in such a bad state why do labour still look likely to win the election??[/quote] Earth to Cragie....Earth to Cragie....please report immediately for your reality pills. Cragie wrote:
it seems tony has done more for independence than anyone else. it could be true, what has alex salmond done for it? he ran away to london cos he lost in scotland!! i wonder what will happen after may when the SNP are rejected again. What has tony done for scotland=delvolution, high employment, stable economy, pensioner winter fuel allowance, preternaty and maternaty leave increased for women and maternaty leave introduced for males, to name just a few. If scotland was in such a bad state why do labour still look likely to win the election?? Earth to Cragie....Earth to Cragie....please report immediately for your reality pills. Posted by: P Hannigan, Glasgow on 7:20pm Sun 15 Apr 07 [quote][bold]Frances[/bold] wrote:
No family holidays under the SNP? Please tell me, Hannah, what else have I missed in the SNP manifesto - a dastardly plan to reintroduce the Black Death? To decode the New Labour spin, the "tax rise" Hannah is referring to is the plan to abolish the council tax and REPLACE it with a local income tax - under which the amount people pay will be determined by what they can actually afford. Novel idea, I know, but it might just catch on. And then a few pensioners might just be able to take a modest holiday for the first time in a while. By the way, Hannah, you forgot to drop in the key phrase "hard-working families like mine". So you wouldn't get full marks from Alastair Campbell after all.[/quote] If SNP came into power and managed to get an independent Scotland the shipyard, my place of work, would be out of business. The government have to build their ships in their own country. Only certain parts of the ship can be built by another country. So leaving over 3000 people out of a job and 6 navy boats sitting doing nothing!!! Not to mention totally destroying the Scottish economy and bankrupting the country!! Frances wrote:
No family holidays under the SNP? Please tell me, Hannah, what else have I missed in the SNP manifesto - a dastardly plan to reintroduce the Black Death? To decode the New Labour spin, the "tax rise" Hannah is referring to is the plan to abolish the council tax and REPLACE it with a local income tax - under which the amount people pay will be determined by what they can actually afford. Novel idea, I know, but it might just catch on. And then a few pensioners might just be able to take a modest holiday for the first time in a while. By the way, Hannah, you forgot to drop in the key phrase "hard-working families like mine". So you wouldn't get full marks from Alastair Campbell after all. If SNP came into power and managed to get an independent Scotland the shipyard, my place of work, would be out of business. The government have to build their ships in their own country. Only certain parts of the ship can be built by another country. So leaving over 3000 people out of a job and 6 navy boats sitting doing nothing!!! Not to mention totally destroying the Scottish economy and bankrupting the country!! Posted by: ANDREW ROBERTSON, GLASGOW on 9:14am Mon 16 Apr 07 The morons who vote Labour must be in need of some form of therapy. Who else would vote for a collecive of lying oppressors?
Why would any self-respecting Scot vote for a party that lies to the people of Scotland and tells them they are not capable of running their own country?
Where is YOUR self respect?
www.dont-vote-labour.co.uk The morons who vote Labour must be in need of some form of therapy. Who else would vote for a collecive of lying oppressors?
Why would any self-respecting Scot vote for a party that lies to the people of Scotland and tells them they are not capable of running their own country?
Where is YOUR self respect?
www.dont-vote-labour.co.uk Posted by: caz, govan on 3:11pm Wed 18 Apr 07 My god where are you guys hanging out, i'm fed up of the sight of Gordon Jackson knocking doors and handing out leaflets. My god where are you guys hanging out, i'm fed up of the sight of Gordon Jackson knocking doors and handing out leaflets. Posted by: caz, govan on 3:15pm Wed 18 Apr 07 [quote][bold]Paul Bret[/bold] wrote:
Why oh why is Alex Salmond so smug all he time.And I would also like do know where Gordon (part time Jackson) is again.[italic]italic[/italic] [/quote] I saw Gordon on the news at both the yard and the boozer and my old man was chatting to him after to he was definately around Paul Bret wrote:
Why oh why is Alex Salmond so smug all he time.And I would also like do know where Gordon (part time Jackson) is again. I saw Gordon on the news at both the yard and the boozer and my old man was chatting to him after to he was definately around | 
