Council Tax Reform Steals The Show (from The Herald Election Site)

Douglas Fraser and Graeme Smith The battle over council tax dominated the Holyrood election campaign yesterday with a poll claiming that nearly three out of four Scots want it scrapped and replaced by a local income tax.

Ahead of Labour today unveiling its plans for limited reform of the council tax, the current system was attacked as unpopular, oppressive and unfair by the SNP and the LibDems, both parties preferring a local income tax.

Labour leader Jack McConnell found himself in alliance with Tories in hitting back at plans for a local income tax.

The row was reignited by the LibDem details of their plans, published yesterday in The Herald. SNP leader Alex Salmond picked up the theme at an Aberdeen news conference in which he said a poll for his party showed support for the replacement of council tax by a local income tax running at 71% in favour and 16% against. In the north-east, he said support for his policy ran as high as 80%.

"Among the major gainers would be pensioners," he said. "Over half a million pensioners will pay nothing under the SNP's local tax system."

The Nationalists' leader said Labour would have to revalue homes to update the council tax. Valuations are currently 16 years out of date, and Labour has denied this is necessary. This is despite Labour plans to add extra bands to the council tax system, basing those bands on 1991 figures.

Mr Salmond said the experience of revaluation in Wales had been "absolutely horrendous", with most householders left worse off. "So if the council tax stays, the revaluation will make even this oppressive unjust levy look like nothing in comparison to what is coming down the road."

The LibDems also stressed revaluation was the "inevitable consequence" of Labour retaining the council tax.

Finance spokesman George Lyon said: "Labour's revaluation of council tax in Wales led to an average 10% tax hike, with some people paying much more. As night follows day, revaluation would be inevitable under Labour's plans for Scotland."

He dismissed his former coalition partners' plan for cutting Scottish Water bills for pensioners as "nothing but spin and gimmicks".

Mr McConnell's counter-attack was focused on the SNP, accusing Nationalists of ducking questions on the full implications of their income-based plan.

Mr McConnell questioned the loss of £380m in council tax benefit, which Whitehall is refusing to adjust if council tax is replaced. He pointed out that Scottish Water charges would remain under SNP plans.

He repeated Labour charges that there is a large gap in revenue between the 3p maximum promised by the SNP for local income tax and the 5p reckoned by independent analysts as necessary to pay for council services.

That was part of an attack on Mr Salmond for allegedly failing to answer Labour's questions on the economy and arrangements under independence. The Labour leader is seeking to portray his Nationalist rival as avoiding questions, by having few news conferences and arranging them at short notice in Aberdeen.

Tory finance spokesman Derek Brownlee said: "The Nationalists and the LibDems both owe it to the electorate to come clean, tell the truth, and try and show that their sums add up without them having to tax Scotland even more.

"A local income tax is a tax on hard-working families. It is a tax on pensions and a tax on the profits of small businesses in Scotland."

Quite right- council tax should be front and centre in this election.

I have a family to feed and Alex Salmond wants me to pay more -not ONLY for the cost of splitting us off from the UK, but also by making us pay more council tax.

The SNP would bankrupt half the families that live around me if they had the chance!

But that's always been the case, to be fair.

People shouldn't be shocked that the SNP will raise costs on families to satisfy their one ambition of taking us out of Britain.

If you don't like it- don't vote for them! I wont be!

"He dismissed his former coalition partners' plan for cutting Scottish Water bills for pensioners as nothing but spin and gimmicks." The Lib-Dems may, but I don’t consider a cut in council tax of up to [bold]Ł360[/bold] a gimmick. Their policy would hurt pensioners (according to independent research) so the message is quite clear if you want tax rises and an extra tax on business vote Lib-Dem, if you want a tax cut [bold]vote Labour[/bold] .

"He dismissed his former coalition partners' plan for cutting Scottish Water bills for pensioners as nothing but spin and gimmicks."

The Lib-Dems may, but I don’t consider a cut in council tax of up to Ł360 a gimmick. Their policy would hurt pensioners (according to independent research) so the message is quite clear if you want tax rises and an extra tax on business vote Lib-Dem, if you want a tax cut vote Labour .

"Janis" from Dumfries and "Clare" from Edinburgh appear within 2 minutes of each other and make remarkably similar points, using remarkably similar language - language remarkably similar to Labour press releases. And "Joyce" from Govan pops up on another story 2 mins previous to that.

I hope they are paying you all time-and-a-half in Labour HQ!

Neither Janis nor Clare seem to have an argument for retaining the blatantly unfair Council Tax. Whereas the SNP - and others - point out that a local income tax means people will pay what they can afford for their local services. What's so shocking about that idea?

In reply to the two Labour trolls - Janis & Clare - it is news to me that a vote for the SNP is a vote for independence. What it is actually a vote for is to replace the rotten and incomptetent administration of Joke McConnell (aka McDonald) with new blood, new energy and new ideas. Independence is not on the table. There will be a referendum in due course. Then it is up the the people to decide. This is known as democracy, a concept of which the Labour Party has neither knowledge nor experience.

Three quarters of the people want to get rid of the Council tax and replace it with an income tax. This issue is so damaging to Labour that even they had to put something together on the fly to combat it. As they had previously attacked the policy of full repeal they chose instead to offer pensioners one quarter of one pence in reduction. [bold]That means pensioners will still be required to pay 2 and three quarter pence Council tax and maybe more after a revaluation.[/bold] Sometimes I get the feeling that the SNP has infiltrated the Labour campaign team and is leading them astray. [bold]Can Labour be really this out of touch with Scottish public opinion?[/bold]

Three quarters of the people want to get rid of the Council tax and replace it with an income tax.

This issue is so damaging to Labour that even they had to put something together on the fly to combat it. As they had previously attacked the policy of full repeal they chose instead to offer pensioners one quarter of one pence in reduction. That means pensioners will still be required to pay 2 and three quarter pence Council tax and maybe more after a revaluation.
Sometimes I get the feeling that the SNP has infiltrated the Labour campaign team and is leading them astray.

Can Labour be really this out of touch with Scottish public opinion?

Dear Janis

It is 100% factually innaccurate that the SNP will make you pay more council tax. The SNP want to abolish council tax. They wish to replace it with a Local Income Tax. For most people and families, this will be a much more progressive tax (ie it is related to income, and peoples ability to pay.)

It is generally accepted that progressive taxes are fairer to the vast majority of the population.

Colin, your right. Pensioners, the disabled, people who work in low paid jobs (the majority in this nation)-all lazy and should be paying a far higher proportion of their income than the few who have very well paid jobs. Why oh why do we have an income tax system that makes people like you pay more in total? Don't we all use the same national government services? Because it's the fairest system that ensures everyone pays the same proportion of their wages.

Colin, your right. Pensioners, the disabled, people who work in low paid jobs (the majority in this nation)-all lazy and should be paying a far higher proportion of their income than the few who have very well paid jobs.

Why oh why do we have an income tax system that makes people like you pay more in total? Don't we all use the same national government services? Because it's the fairest system that ensures everyone pays the same proportion of their wages.

Al, your comments are both uneducated and quite repulsive. At no point do i call disabled or pensioners lazy. You quite clearly understand who i am talking about but well done on making a stupid and crass point. Good luck to the SNP on reforming local services, every other party who have tried it have failed dramatically. I pay income tax as a direct tax to the government for running this country. The government then subsidises local government with money and then the local government tax their residents further with a council tax in order to meet their obligations to the community. Asking people on high incomes to subsidise it all will lead to these people leaving this country if they havent already done so. We need to keep the skilled people in this country and not lose them elsewhere.

Al, your comments are both uneducated and quite repulsive. At no point do i call disabled or pensioners lazy. You quite clearly understand who i am talking about but well done on making a stupid and crass point.

Good luck to the SNP on reforming local services, every other party who have tried it have failed dramatically.

I pay income tax as a direct tax to the government for running this country. The government then subsidises local government with money and then the local government tax their residents further with a council tax in order to meet their obligations to the community.

Asking people on high incomes to subsidise it all will lead to these people leaving this country if they havent already done so. We need to keep the skilled people in this country and not lose them elsewhere.

I have 2 issues with the council tax system. My points are focused on young people on a low income because a lot of my friends are in this situation. I do sometimes get tired that it's always the pensioners that are mentioned in relation to council tax, when poor single people are suffering too. The first is that it restricts social movement within our cities as people who rent feel they can't aford to live in areas that have a higher rate. This, I believe actively causes friction within society. The second is that young people not earning a lot and can't afford to get on the property market and therefore rent, would pay less with a local income tax, even at the 5p increase indicated by Midwinter. People point out that council tax helps if people live in multiple occupancy houses- no good if theres more than 3 people, as you have to pay more because the landlord charges more for HMO licenses. Also, would the local income tax not be based on the PAYE system and therefore there would be savings made on admin and less money spent on chasing non-payers. SCRAP THE COUNCIL TAX!

I have 2 issues with the council tax system. My points are focused on young people on a low income because a lot of my friends are in this situation. I do sometimes get tired that it's always the pensioners that are mentioned in relation to council tax, when poor single people are suffering too.

The first is that it restricts social movement within our cities as people who rent feel they can't aford to live in areas that have a higher rate. This, I believe actively causes friction within society.

The second is that young people not earning a lot and can't afford to get on the property market and therefore rent, would pay less with a local income tax, even at the 5p increase indicated by Midwinter. People point out that council tax helps if people live in multiple occupancy houses- no good if theres more than 3 people, as you have to pay more because the landlord charges more for HMO licenses.

Also, would the local income tax not be based on the PAYE system and therefore there would be savings made on admin and less money spent on chasing non-payers.

SCRAP THE COUNCIL TAX!

Aye the new Labour drones got a kick up the nether regions about a week ago and were telt tae get on these boards to try and counter the fact that the posts were predominantly pro-SNP. They got a wee bit carried away though and multiple posts started to appear from "women" all over Scotland who appeared to be curiously on message as regards New Labour policy, and their passionate hatred of the Nats. Well GIRLS we read your posts but when we do we picture Cllr Terry Kelly furiously typing while dressed as Dolly Parton!

Oh Janis. You didn't read the article did you? The SNP will scrap council tax. How are things going for Labour in Dumfries?

Janis in Dumfries is obviously in the top ten per cent of earners in Scotland because they are the only people who will pay more. Let's be clear about this. According to the Institute for Fiscal Studies on average in Scotland a single person earning Ł33,270 and below in a Band D property and families living in a Band F property with an income of Ł64,440 and below will be better off under the SNP's local income tax proposals. So that's the threshhold - individuals would have to have an income above Ł33,000 and couples would have to have an income above Ł64,000 before they would pay more under the SNP's plans. And even those people would pay less than 1 per cent of their income more. Therefore we can assume that since Janis, Clare and Daryl are concerned that they will have to pay more they have incomes that come into that top 10 per cent band but would rather see pensioners going without than pay a little more themselves. If I were to say what I actually think about people like that I don't think this post would be published. So I won't bother. All I will say is that there needs to be some acceptance in any civilised society that taxation should be based on ability to pay and that any tax that hits the poor hardest is just a bad tax.

Janis in Dumfries is obviously in the top ten per cent of earners in Scotland because they are the only people who will pay more.

Let's be clear about this.

According to the Institute for Fiscal Studies on average in Scotland a single person earning Ł33,270 and below in a Band D property and
families living in a Band F property with an income of Ł64,440 and below will be better off under the SNP's local income tax proposals.

So that's the threshhold - individuals would have to have an income above Ł33,000 and couples would have to have an income above Ł64,000 before they would pay more under the SNP's plans. And even those people would pay less than 1 per cent of their income more.

Therefore we can assume that since Janis, Clare and Daryl are concerned that they will have to pay more they have incomes that come into that top 10 per cent band but would rather see pensioners going without than pay a little more themselves.

If I were to say what I actually think about people like that I don't think this post would be published.

So I won't bother. All I will say is that there needs to be some acceptance in any civilised society that taxation should be based on ability to pay and that any tax that hits the poor hardest is just a bad tax.

One problem I have as the only salary-earner in a large household, is the perception of "income" = "ability to pay". Whilst having a higher than average income, I also have a much higher than average expenditure, due to the number of people I am supporting. In purchasing a house recently I also have a higher than average mortgage, which is a substantial proportion of my take-home pay. As we have very young children my wife is at home, yet I cannot use her tax allowance to offset any additional income I my want to bring in.

One problem I have as the only salary-earner in a large household, is the perception of "income" = "ability to pay".

Whilst having a higher than average income, I also have a much higher than average expenditure, due to the number of people I am supporting.

In purchasing a house recently I also have a higher than average mortgage, which is a substantial proportion of my take-home pay.

As we have very young children my wife is at home, yet I cannot use her tax allowance to offset any additional income I my want to bring in.

Naekiddin,

I think you might just have scarred me for life with that mental image you have just left me with !! : )

Janis, Clare and Joyce - oh dear, there is a man in Labour's HQ with multiple personality disorder. No wonder you want education as a priority - you need it yourselves.

Be critical of your political opponents policies, but base it on facts.

Naekiddin@1015 h*llsteeth I've just choked on my rice krispies Cllr Terry kelly dressed up as Dolly Parton !

The Scottish National Party propose quite simply that the present Council tax based upon property will be abolished and in its place there would be a tax for local authority services which would amount to adding 3p on to the 20p basic rate of income tax. This would ensure for the first time that citizens would pay according to their income rather than paying based upon what kind of house they have and where they happen to live as is the case under the present Council Tax. So for a husband and wife with for example a joint income of Ł30,000 per year and therefore a taxable income of Ł19,930 (after tax deduction of joint allowance of 2X Ł5,035) at 3p = Ł597.80 in total local tax per annum would be payable for both husband and wife. I think you would agree that this compares very favourably with the present Council Tax which for example for a Band D property in Edinburgh in 2006-7 would be Ł1,169.00 per annum. People on lower income such as Pensioners on the state Pension will obviously benefit even more. If we take the example of two persons on "Ł25,000 each" = Ł50,000 joint income their local tax would be Ł50,000 less tax allowance of 2 X Ł5035 = Ł39,930 taxable income at 3p = Ł1,197.90 in total local tax per annum payable for both husband and wife. This is almost the same as they would pay at present in Council Tax for a Band D property in Edinburgh in 2006-7 which will be Ł1169.00 per annum. I would also point out that Sir Michael Lyon in his recent report to the Government on the Council Tax in England, said that future governments should consider introducing more radical reforms such as a local income tax as a fairer method of raising taxes for local services, but that these reforms may require greater public support and understanding than currently exists.

1. It seems very strange that a tax can be levied that means that almost everyone pays less... 2. If we assume that the higher paid will using tax avoidance measures (e.g switching income to capital gains, getting paid outside of Scotland, etc.) then there is going to be a serious hole in this argument. 3. How on earth are employers going to deduct the correct amount of income tax from their employees? If you live in Cardonald, you will have to deduct and pay over Income tax at the Glasgow Council rate, whereas if you lived in Ralston you would have to deduct and pay over income tax at the Renfrewshire council rate? 4. Of course this would be a further boost of income to councils in the prosperous suburbs with high earning individuals. The tax raised in areas of deprivation or with pensioners will fall dramatically. 5. Of course, people will have every incentive to lie about where they live in order to pay lower taxes (you can't lie about where your house is) or indeed to claim that they live in the remaining UK. 6. Council Tax is also an effective break on house prices. If you remove the tax then house prices will go up even more. I am sure I can think of a hundred reasons why income tax is a bad idea. The council tax needs replacing with more bands to capture the very rich. But for me, Local Income Tax, is a good soundbite that does not stand up to even basic scrutiny.

1. It seems very strange that a tax can be levied that means that almost everyone pays less...

2. If we assume that the higher paid will using tax avoidance measures (e.g switching income to capital gains, getting paid outside of Scotland, etc.) then there is going to be a serious hole in this argument.

3. How on earth are employers going to deduct the correct amount of income tax from their employees? If you live in Cardonald, you will have to deduct and pay over Income tax at the Glasgow Council rate, whereas if you lived in Ralston you would have to deduct and pay over income tax at the Renfrewshire council rate?

4. Of course this would be a further boost of income to councils in the prosperous suburbs with high earning individuals. The tax raised in areas of deprivation or with pensioners will fall dramatically.

5. Of course, people will have every incentive to lie about where they live in order to pay lower taxes (you can't lie about where your house is) or indeed to claim that they live in the remaining UK.

6. Council Tax is also an effective break on house prices. If you remove the tax then house prices will go up even more.

I am sure I can think of a hundred reasons why income tax is a bad idea. The council tax needs replacing with more bands to capture the very rich.

But for me, Local Income Tax, is a good soundbite that does not stand up to even basic scrutiny.

7. If the tax is only to increase the 20% band then anyone earning in the higher band will pay the same fixed amount no matter what they earn. This is just as bad as the council tax!!!

This is looking more and more absurd

Yet another manifestation of Blue Labour, in cahoots with their soul-mates the Tories to defend a Tory created tax against a redistributive tax. It seems like a long time ago when Labour would have been arguing against what they are now promoting.
Surely many Labour supporters must be realising now that the only thing "Labour" about Labour is the name.

Ignore the Labour "numpties" (the "in" word :o) )

Vote SNP for a BETTER tomorrow, not the same clapped out lies & sleaze of Labour.

In answer to "Chris at 10.49 am today" please note that the Scottish National Party propose quite simply that the present Council tax based upon property “value” will be abolished and in its place there would be a uniform nationwide tax for local authority services which would amount to adding 3p on to the 20p basic rate of income tax. You can check how the Scottish National Party proposed uniform nationwide tax of 3p on to the 20p basic rate of income tax would affect your personal circumstances by choosing an example via the following link http://paddington.snp.org/jthomas/savings.php

In answer to "Chris at 10.49 am today" please note that the Scottish National Party propose quite simply that the present Council tax based upon property “value” will be abolished and in its place there would be a uniform nationwide tax for local authority services which would amount to adding 3p on to the 20p basic rate of income tax.

You can check how the Scottish National Party proposed uniform nationwide tax of 3p on to the 20p basic rate of income tax would affect your personal circumstances by choosing an example via the following link http://paddington.snp.org/jthomas/savings.php

Can somebody clarify something for me. Will the 2 or 3% be applied to everyone, so you don't have to be the homeowner or the person with their name on the lease? If it is then why is this any different from the Poll Tax? Also, if it is, then what is the impact on total household payments for say a couple with grown up children who are at home and working? Will all four pay this tax? Personally, I don't see why someone should pay more for their bins to be collected just because they earn more or because a council official says their house costs more. Also, will MSPs pay this twice or 3 times - I'm guessing Mr Salmond will happily pay for his constituency home, his new Edinburgh abode and the council tax for his place in London. Or is there some kind of exemption for our cash strapped politicians?

Can somebody clarify something for me. Will the 2 or 3% be applied to everyone, so you don't have to be the homeowner or the person with their name on the lease? If it is then why is this any different from the Poll Tax?

Also, if it is, then what is the impact on total household payments for say a couple with grown up children who are at home and working? Will all four pay this tax?

Personally, I don't see why someone should pay more for their bins to be collected just because they earn more or because a council official says their house costs more.

Also, will MSPs pay this twice or 3 times - I'm guessing Mr Salmond will happily pay for his constituency home, his new Edinburgh abode and the council tax for his place in London. Or is there some kind of exemption for our cash strapped politicians?

Marian,

I am astonished by this. What you are saying is that councils will have no powers to vary tax levels and they will, in fact, be 100% funded from central government!

That is an appalling degree of centralisation that not even Tony Blair or Margaret Thatcher contemplated...

As the election gets nearer these boards appear full of more personal abuse than politcal argument. No doubt i will be assumed to be a unionist for taking issues with an SNP policy which has nothing to do with indepdendence, unless you count picking a fight with the Treasury over CT benefit. The problem with the assumptions about how much you would pay for a National (there is no local authority role in setting the level) is that is assumes that people live in homes with tax bands equal to their income. Infact most people, particularly younger homeowners. live in properties valued for council tax purposes at some 60-70% lower than they cost. THis is becuase incomes and the housing market have risen faster than tax bands. These people have bought a house on that basis they are now faced with paying twice, if they are a couple, based on their current income not the valuation of their house. In essence the SNP proposal is a revaluation by the backdoor. Instead of revaualing the property they are setting up a system which aims to link local services to work and set the rate at existing and future earnings. The SNP plan will cost young workers with low band homes far more than they curretnly pay. Young families with two incomes 20 - 30 grand each, living in a low band property will be hit hardest. Meanwhile, pensioners sitting in huge homes pay nothing - where is the fairness in that?

As the election gets nearer these boards appear full of more personal abuse than politcal argument. No doubt i will be assumed to be a unionist for taking issues with an SNP policy which has nothing to do with indepdendence, unless you count picking a fight with the Treasury over CT benefit.

The problem with the assumptions about how much you would pay for a National (there is no local authority role in setting the level) is that is assumes that people live in homes with tax bands equal to their income. Infact most people, particularly younger homeowners. live in properties valued for council tax purposes at some 60-70% lower than they cost. THis is becuase incomes and the housing market have risen faster than tax bands. These people have bought a house on that basis they are now faced with paying twice, if they are a couple, based on their current income not the valuation of their house.

In essence the SNP proposal is a revaluation by the backdoor. Instead of revaualing the property they are setting up a system which aims to link local services to work and set the rate at existing and future earnings.

The SNP plan will cost young workers with low band homes far more than they curretnly pay. Young families with two incomes 20 - 30 grand each, living in a low band property will be hit hardest.

Meanwhile, pensioners sitting in huge homes pay nothing - where is the fairness in that?

[quote][bold]ldnscot[/bold] wrote: Can somebody clarify something for me. Will the 2 or 3% be applied to everyone, so you don\'t have to be the homeowner or the person with their name on the lease? If it is then why is this any different from the Poll Tax? Also, if it is, then what is the impact on total household payments for say a couple with grown up children who are at home and working? Will all four pay this tax? Personally, I don\'t see why someone should pay more for their bins to be collected just because they earn more or because a council official says their house costs more. Also, will MSPs pay this twice or 3 times - I\'m guessing Mr Salmond will happily pay for his constituency home, his new Edinburgh abode and the council tax for his place in London. Or is there some kind of exemption for our cash strapped politicians?[/quote] The percenatge council tax will apply to everyone, but will be subject to those that can afford. It will work exactly the same way Income tax is calculated. That is if you dont earn anything or dont earn much, you will not pay any tax. Only those that earn over a certain level will pay the tax. Simply put those that can afford will, those that cant afford wont. The difference with the pol tax is that the Tory Poll tax was a fixed amount per person (hence why was called the poll tax) and didnt take into account the ability to pay. The current counsil rates also dont take into account the ability to pay either, with pensioners on fixed pension suffering as rates increase. The new council tax is only on the people that have income that is taxable. Council tax is NOT based on the value of your house, only on the abilty to pay. Your last comment is not relevent as it only applies to councils in Scotland

ldnscot wrote:
Can somebody clarify something for me. Will the 2 or 3% be applied to everyone, so you don\'t have to be the homeowner or the person with their name on the lease? If it is then why is this any different from the Poll Tax? Also, if it is, then what is the impact on total household payments for say a couple with grown up children who are at home and working? Will all four pay this tax? Personally, I don\'t see why someone should pay more for their bins to be collected just because they earn more or because a council official says their house costs more. Also, will MSPs pay this twice or 3 times - I\'m guessing Mr Salmond will happily pay for his constituency home, his new Edinburgh abode and the council tax for his place in London. Or is there some kind of exemption for our cash strapped politicians?

The percenatge council tax will apply to everyone, but will be subject to those that can afford. It will work exactly the same way Income tax is calculated. That is if you dont earn anything or dont earn much, you will not pay any tax. Only those that earn over a certain level will pay the tax. Simply put those that can afford will, those that cant afford wont. The difference with the pol tax is that the Tory Poll tax was a fixed amount per person (hence why was called the poll tax) and didnt take into account the ability to pay. The current counsil rates also dont take into account the ability to pay either, with pensioners on fixed pension suffering as rates increase.
The new council tax is only on the people that have income that is taxable. Council tax is NOT based on the value of your house, only on the abilty to pay. Your last comment is not relevent as it only applies to councils in Scotland

The SNP's answer to abolish the unpopular Council Tax with a local income tax with the ability to pay is in my opinion the best step forward. Its little wonder that Labour lackeys like Janis, and Clare don't like the Nationalists very much. They just can't stand the fact that the SNP have come up with an idea that would put an end to Jack McConnell's meal ticket at the expense of honest voters. Here is a question for my fellow forum members : Q. What does Arthur Midwinter, Maitland Mackie, and Philip Gould have in common, and what's the difference between them? Answer : Midwinter, Mackie, and Gould deliberately set out to defame, and slander Alex Salmond by saying that the SNP figures don't add up as well as their scaremongering claims that independence would lead to financial disaster. These three parasites have political affiliations with Labour, and the Lib-Dems, and I think any voter worth their salt doesn't have to put up with their crap. Arthur Midwinter is a discredited academic, and Philip Gould is a dodgy pollster guru. Both with close links to Jack McConnell, and Tony Blair. They say the lunatics have taken over the asylum, and in Maitland Mackie's case it seems they have. I heard his outburst about Alex Salmond calling for voters to vote Labour or Conservative to keep Nora Radcliffe in, and I just didn't know whether to laugh or spew. Way overstated, and completely exaggerated his argument as well as being an unconvicing liar. He should stick to running an Ice cream business, and save it for his master, Ming Campbell. How does one make a realistic judgement of all this? I have read all the posts, and the only way is to have an open mind, and try, and make sense of the Labour-Tory-Lib Dem propaganda that must get sickening by the day. One things for sure there's more to come.

The SNP's answer to abolish the unpopular Council Tax with a local income tax with the ability to pay is in my opinion the best step forward. Its little wonder that Labour lackeys like Janis, and Clare don't like the Nationalists very much. They just can't stand the fact that the SNP have come up with an idea that would put an end to Jack McConnell's meal ticket at the expense of honest voters.

Here is a question for my fellow forum members : Q. What does Arthur Midwinter, Maitland Mackie, and Philip Gould have in common, and what's the difference between them?

Answer : Midwinter, Mackie, and Gould deliberately set out to defame, and slander Alex Salmond by saying that the SNP figures don't add up as well as their scaremongering claims that independence would lead to financial disaster. These three parasites have political affiliations with Labour, and the Lib-Dems, and I think any voter worth their salt doesn't have to put up with their crap.

Arthur Midwinter is a discredited academic, and Philip Gould is a dodgy pollster guru. Both with close links to Jack McConnell, and Tony Blair. They say the lunatics have taken over the asylum, and in Maitland Mackie's case it seems they have. I heard his outburst about Alex Salmond calling for voters to vote Labour or Conservative to keep Nora Radcliffe in, and I just didn't know whether to laugh or spew. Way overstated, and completely exaggerated his argument as well as being an unconvicing liar. He should stick to running an Ice cream business, and save it for his master, Ming Campbell.

How does one make a realistic judgement of all this? I have read all the posts, and the only way is to have an open mind, and try, and make sense of the Labour-Tory-Lib Dem propaganda that must get sickening by the day.

One things for sure there's more to come.

Like all taxes there will be some who gain, others who lose, but, generally the proposal does seem to benefit any houshold with a single income of less the Ł30k pa.- or double incomes of around Ł35k. Incomes over the above may lose out, but again that depends on the council tax band and I suspect the increase will be towrads 5p than 3? However where the implimentation could show real savings is in its administration. At present local councils gat block grants from the government; through some mystical formula and the rest through the council tax which again has Harry Potter formulae that increase by 5% per year while services decrease by an even greater extent. All told it's a lot of money wasted on hot air and vanity. So let Holyrood collect the money through the PAYE (Revenue) System and let the local executive argue their case with the national administrator. No need for council tax bills, chasing non payment of same, local number crunchers reconsiling lists for national number crunchers etc. Savings on public sector? Perhaps it's part of SNP's reasoning for introducing the scheme?

Like all taxes there will be some who gain, others who lose, but, generally the proposal does seem to benefit any houshold with a single income of less the Ł30k pa.- or double incomes of around Ł35k. Incomes over the above may lose out, but again that depends on the council tax band and I suspect the increase will be towrads 5p than 3?

However where the implimentation could show real savings is in its administration. At present local councils gat block grants from the government; through some mystical formula and the rest through the council tax which again has Harry Potter formulae that increase by 5% per year while services decrease by an even greater extent. All told it's a lot of money wasted on hot air and vanity.

So let Holyrood collect the money through the PAYE (Revenue) System and let the local executive argue their case with the national administrator. No need for council tax bills, chasing non payment of same, local number crunchers reconsiling lists for national number crunchers etc.

Savings on public sector? Perhaps it's part of SNP's reasoning for introducing the scheme?

Has anyone tried the SNP local tex calculator on their website?

It turns out that the only people paying more in their examples ais the family made up of the MP and and Company executive earning Ł148k pa

So there you have it ladies and gentleman. The local tax issue has been solved becuase our MSPs are all going to stump up the cash for us.

Three cheers for the MSP's
Hip hip........

The idea of a local income tax has been around for years, as has its inherent problems... The only one that seems to have been 'solved' is that councils will no longer have any power to change local taxes. They can blame all their problems on central government! It is such a bad idea and needs a thorough examination. I think this will be lost in the who pays more/ who pays less question. People who will pay less include those with more than 1 home! people who can switch income to capital gains (company directors) people who have a home in England too and so don't pay it. A studio flat in Doncaster will do! People who will pay more include: Overcrowded families It's nonsense really.

The idea of a local income tax has been around for years, as has its inherent problems... The only one that seems to have been 'solved' is that councils will no longer have any power to change local taxes. They can blame all their problems on central government!

It is such a bad idea and needs a thorough examination. I think this will be lost in the who pays more/ who pays less question.

People who will pay less include

those with more than 1 home!

people who can switch income to capital gains (company directors)

people who have a home in England too and so don't pay it. A studio flat in Doncaster will do!

People who will pay more include:

Overcrowded families

It's nonsense really.

In reply to "Chris on 11:49am today" I would add that the Council acts as an agent of central government for most services; education, social work, police, building control, etc with a little latitude for local views. Only planning, rubbish collection, street lighting, sports facilities and arts provision are wholly within its remit; and even then "guidance" is provided by the central authority. Roughly 80% of local councils' budgets come from central (Holyrood ) government with but 20% from the dreaded council tax. Surely it is much fairer to have local tax determined by income and not by the notional value of a house? The deceit in the local income tax versus council tax argument rests solely with those who seek to perpetuate a regressive council tax that hits the poorest and most vulnerable hardest. Council tax is especially unfair on pensioners because council tax as a share of the basic state pension is continually rising. The poorest 20 per cent of pensioners pay nearly six times more in council tax than the richest 20 per cent of non-pensioners as a proportion of their income. Under local income tax, most pensioners would be better off. Pensioners who don't pay any income tax, won't pay any local income tax either. Not only would this proposed system based upon PAYE be fairer it would be far simpler and much less costly to collect than the existing bureaucratic nightmare that is required for the collection and administration of the Council Tax.

"The SNP plan will cost young workers with low band homes far more than they curretnly pay. Young families with two incomes 20 - 30 grand each, living in a low band property will be hit hardest. Meanwhile, pensioners sitting in huge homes pay nothing - where is the fairness in that" Fantastic point. This income equals ability to pay line is nonsense. Wealth provides ability to pay and if people chose not to hold so much of their wealth in the form of housing then they'd have the ability to pay their fair share of tax. In order to tax those who really have the ability to pay we need to tax total wealth rather than gross (i.e. not even disposable) income. While flawed (the best proposal is the Greens' Land Value Tax followed by revalued council tax) the unrevalued council tax beats more income tax. Vote SNP for independence on 3rd may - but haud yer nebs - they're a disparate bunch of political chancers with no common political philosophy apart from independence.

"The SNP plan will cost young workers with low band homes far more than they curretnly pay. Young families with two incomes 20 - 30 grand each, living in a low band property will be hit hardest.
Meanwhile, pensioners sitting in huge homes pay nothing - where is the fairness in that"

Fantastic point. This income equals ability to pay line is nonsense. Wealth provides ability to pay and if people chose not to hold so much of their wealth in the form of housing then they'd have the ability to pay their fair share of tax. In order to tax those who really have the ability to pay we need to tax total wealth rather than gross (i.e. not even disposable) income. While flawed (the best proposal is the Greens' Land Value Tax followed by revalued council tax) the unrevalued council tax beats more income tax.

Vote SNP for independence on 3rd may - but haud yer nebs - they're a disparate bunch of political chancers with no common political philosophy apart from independence.

How will it be determined who pays? 1) Those living in England but working in Scotland? 2) Those living in Scotland but working in England? 3) Those living & working in Scotland for a non-Scottish company? 4) Those living & working "abroad" for a Scottish company? Another issue will be that income, and thus income tax is often very variable, and thus the income for local councils will become variable. Also, will it be based on what I earnt last year (but might not be able to afford this year!) or taken off my income this year like PAYE? How much will the administration of it all cost and who does it?

How will it be determined who pays?

1) Those living in England but working in Scotland?
2) Those living in Scotland but working in England?
3) Those living & working in Scotland for a non-Scottish company?
4) Those living & working "abroad" for a Scottish company?

Another issue will be that income, and thus income tax is often very variable, and thus the income for local councils will become variable.

Also, will it be based on what I earnt last year (but might not be able to afford this year!) or taken off my income this year like PAYE?

How much will the administration of it all cost and who does it?

Brilliant! All these Labour apparatchiks are logging on now after getting told to by their party. All of a sudden lots of Labour support comes crawling out of the e-woodwork. Keep it coming guys your nonsense and blind allegiance to corrupt and incompetent leaders only makes you look even more foolish. The people of Scotland are moral and intelligent and moral intelligent people don't vote for those who support wars that have killed hundreds of thousands of innocent people. If you had any moral fibre you wouldn't be so quick to cast the first stone about a man who made a mistake. You would be questioning your own allegiance to party that [bold]deliberately[/bold] lied so they could start a war. Hundreds of thousands of people have died this far and Labour lied to start this war. The Rose of Labour has flowered in the blood of innocents - shame on you for propping up a corrupt regime.

Brilliant!
All these Labour apparatchiks are logging on now after getting told to by their party.
All of a sudden lots of Labour support comes crawling out of the e-woodwork.

Keep it coming guys your nonsense and blind allegiance to corrupt and incompetent leaders only makes you look even more foolish.

The people of Scotland are moral and intelligent and moral intelligent people don't vote for those who support wars that have killed hundreds of thousands of innocent people.

If you had any moral fibre you wouldn't be so quick to cast the first stone about a man who made a mistake. You would be questioning your own allegiance to party that deliberately lied so they could start a war. Hundreds of thousands of people have died this far and Labour lied to start this war. The Rose of Labour has flowered in the blood of innocents - shame on you for propping up a corrupt regime.

How did we get from Council Tax to Iraq in the space of one message?

I support what one person said recently, the tax should be based not on what people earn, but on the property they choose to live in.

We got to to Iraq from tax because Labour have tried to wash their hands clean. They have tried to put a defining and shocking event of world history as a blip on their record. Labour don't like to talk about the war. Labour can talk about tax all they want but nobody is listening - the sound of bombs and gunfire drowns out their rhetoric Labour have tried to wash their hands but the stain lingers and it gets darker every day. We don't want to be governed by masters of war no matter what they say about tax. Labour will be judged by the Scottish people and they are angry about Labour's lies.

We got to to Iraq from tax because Labour have tried to wash their hands clean.

They have tried to put a defining and shocking event of world history as a blip on their record. Labour don't like to talk about the war.

Labour can talk about tax all they want but nobody is listening - the sound of bombs and gunfire drowns out their rhetoric

Labour have tried to wash their hands but the stain lingers and it gets darker every day. We don't want to be governed by masters of war no matter what they say about tax.

Labour will be judged by the Scottish people and they are angry about Labour's lies.

I have no control over the value of my house and despair at rampant house price inflation because of the ills it causes.
How can a tax based on the value of my house be fair when my income isnt subject to the same level of increase?
Must I sell and move to a butt and ben to beat the system?

Council Tax is an appaulingly bad tax, introduced as a half poll tax/ half-rates compromise. I think local income tax is not a solution, and certainly not with the structure of dozens of little councils. The problems with the council tax are: (i) too many houses in the same band within any council make it effectively a poll tax where everyone pays the same (ii) The relief to people on low incomes is far too low and (iii) councils cannot vary non-domestic rates - another nationalised local tax - so that any changes in expenditure are borne disproportionately by the council taxpayers. Fixing all of these problems would be far more sensible than introducing a local income tax with all the inherent problems.

Council Tax is an appaulingly bad tax, introduced as a half poll tax/ half-rates compromise. I think local income tax is not a solution, and certainly not with the structure of dozens of little councils.

The problems with the council tax are: (i) too many houses in the same band within any council make it effectively a poll tax where everyone pays the same (ii) The relief to people on low incomes is far too low and (iii) councils cannot vary non-domestic rates - another nationalised local tax - so that any changes in expenditure are borne disproportionately by the council taxpayers. Fixing all of these problems would be far more sensible than introducing a local income tax with all the inherent problems.

Mike: If you replace a property tax (e.g. council tax) with an income tax then property prices will go up even more. Increasing house values should not mean you pay more as other properties will increase values too. Marian: I completely take your point about council tax (see above) but income tax does not solve the problem and, I reckon, won't ever happen. The losers will scream and shout and the winners will keep quiet. It is soundbite politics again, I'm afraid.

Mike:

If you replace a property tax (e.g. council tax) with an income tax then property prices will go up even more. Increasing house values should not mean you pay more as other properties will increase values too.

Marian:

I completely take your point about council tax (see above) but income tax does not solve the problem and, I reckon, won't ever happen. The losers will scream and shout and the winners will keep quiet.

It is soundbite politics again, I'm afraid.

1. It seems very strange that a tax can be levied that means that almost everyone pays less... It's not strange at all, Chris. The SNP's local income tax will raise about Ł1 billion less than council tax-which means that councils will have substantially less to spend on the little things like education and social work. Curiously, the SNP are not bothering to mention their public service cuts to the voters they're trying to bribe. And there I thought only the Tories put tax cuts above public services...

1. It seems very strange that a tax can be levied that means that almost everyone pays less...

It's not strange at all, Chris. The SNP's local income tax will raise about Ł1 billion less than council tax-which means that councils will have substantially less to spend on the little things like education and social work. Curiously, the SNP are not bothering to mention their public service cuts to the voters they're trying to bribe.

And there I thought only the Tories put tax cuts above public services...

Can't understand why Labour is so concerned about the SNP having a Local Income Tax policy.

Ken Livingstone, the Labour Mayor Of London, has today said ' I'd like to abolish the council tax and replace it with a local income tax'.

It's in the Times today. So will Labour portray him as someone who cuts public services?

I didn't suggest that a local income tax necessarily means service cuts; it all depends on the level at which it's set, and the SNP seem to be setting it too low. A number of studies have estimated that a local rate of 6-7% would be needed to match council tax revenues. The SNP balked at asking people to back a 6% rate, and instead are proposing 3%. That leaves a fairly substantial black hole. Ken would at least have the guts to go it right.

I didn't suggest that a local income tax necessarily means service cuts; it all depends on the level at which it's set, and the SNP seem to be setting it too low.

A number of studies have estimated that a local rate of 6-7% would be needed to match council tax revenues. The SNP balked at asking people to back a 6% rate, and instead are proposing 3%. That leaves a fairly substantial black hole.

Ken would at least have the guts to go it right.

perhaps wee joke mcdonald could advise wee eck regards local income tax, AS N/LABOUR ARE EXPERTS AT STEALTH TAXES as they have kicked the nation in the teeth with loads of different taxes over the last 10years. what about discussing the pension scandal what about Iraq, what about trident what about nuclear power what about the dome, what about the london olympics stadium, what about the taxes that scotland will have to pay for that most of scotland dont want, roll on 3rd may your redundency day.

[quote][bold]Edward[/bold] wrote: [quote][bold]ldnscot[/bold] wrote: Can somebody clarify something for me. Will the 2 or 3% be applied to everyone, so you don\'t have to be the homeowner or the person with their name on the lease? If it is then why is this any different from the Poll Tax? Also, if it is, then what is the impact on total household payments for say a couple with grown up children who are at home and working? Will all four pay this tax? Personally, I don\'t see why someone should pay more for their bins to be collected just because they earn more or because a council official says their house costs more. Also, will MSPs pay this twice or 3 times - I\'m guessing Mr Salmond will happily pay for his constituency home, his new Edinburgh abode and the council tax for his place in London. Or is there some kind of exemption for our cash strapped politicians?[/quote] The percenatge council tax will apply to everyone, but will be subject to those that can afford. It will work exactly the same way Income tax is calculated. That is if you dont earn anything or dont earn much, you will not pay any tax. Only those that earn over a certain level will pay the tax. Simply put those that can afford will, those that cant afford wont. The difference with the pol tax is that the Tory Poll tax was a fixed amount per person (hence why was called the poll tax) and didnt take into account the ability to pay. The current counsil rates also dont take into account the ability to pay either, with pensioners on fixed pension suffering as rates increase. The new council tax is only on the people that have income that is taxable. Council tax is NOT based on the value of your house, only on the abilty to pay. Your last comment is not relevent as it only applies to councils in Scotland[/quote] Thanks Edward, you didn't answer my question though, however you did raise an interesting point on the ability to pay. Why should ability to pay stop at local services? How about someone earning Ł150k paying Ł2.50 for a pint of milk, and someone on Ł15k paying 25p (don't shoot me if the cost of milk is inaccurate)? The person earning Ł150k certainly has the ability to pay more for milk, something that is more beneficial than most council services.

Edward wrote:

ldnscot wrote: Can somebody clarify something for me. Will the 2 or 3% be applied to everyone, so you don\'t have to be the homeowner or the person with their name on the lease? If it is then why is this any different from the Poll Tax? Also, if it is, then what is the impact on total household payments for say a couple with grown up children who are at home and working? Will all four pay this tax? Personally, I don\'t see why someone should pay more for their bins to be collected just because they earn more or because a council official says their house costs more. Also, will MSPs pay this twice or 3 times - I\'m guessing Mr Salmond will happily pay for his constituency home, his new Edinburgh abode and the council tax for his place in London. Or is there some kind of exemption for our cash strapped politicians?
The percenatge council tax will apply to everyone, but will be subject to those that can afford. It will work exactly the same way Income tax is calculated. That is if you dont earn anything or dont earn much, you will not pay any tax. Only those that earn over a certain level will pay the tax. Simply put those that can afford will, those that cant afford wont. The difference with the pol tax is that the Tory Poll tax was a fixed amount per person (hence why was called the poll tax) and didnt take into account the ability to pay. The current counsil rates also dont take into account the ability to pay either, with pensioners on fixed pension suffering as rates increase. The new council tax is only on the people that have income that is taxable. Council tax is NOT based on the value of your house, only on the abilty to pay. Your last comment is not relevent as it only applies to councils in Scotland

Thanks Edward, you didn't answer my question though, however you did raise an interesting point on the ability to pay. Why should ability to pay stop at local services?

How about someone earning Ł150k paying Ł2.50 for a pint of milk, and someone on Ł15k paying 25p (don't shoot me if the cost of milk is inaccurate)? The person earning Ł150k certainly has the ability to pay more for milk, something that is more beneficial than most council services.

How every New Labour to seek to keep in a system that punishes the poorest in society.

With Gordon Brown's direct attack on the poorest by put up their tax by 100%, we are seeing a deliberate attempt to ensure that those who need help most are denied it at every turn by New Labour.

On May 3rd 2007 Don't vote New Labour, remember Shirley McKie.

Yours sincerely

George Laird
The Campaign for Human Rights at Glasgow University

The Council Tax is clearly unfair and hits many of the poorest members of society the hardest. Shame that both Labour and Tory equally support its continuation.

A local income tax based on ability to pay is the way forward in a fair and just society. Most households in Scotland will be better off with a local income tax.

Scottish Labour has nothing to offer the people of Scotland except scaremongering on "every" issue!

To 'Janis' and 'Clare', if you are going to write as two different people at least try to vary the style, timing and punctuation a bit!

I mean even the hyphens are used the same way.....sloppy and childish!

Did you learn nothing at 'lie, spin and twist 101' during the training for junior internet espionage operatives at Labour HQ?

[quote][bold]Colin[/bold] wrote: How did we get from Council Tax to Iraq in the space of one message? I support what one person said recently, the tax should be based not on what people earn, but on the property they choose to live in.[/quote] We also used to think that Council tax should be based on the property which people live in back when we were both working full time all our working lives but we are now retired and on a fixed company pension therefore our income is the lowest it has ever been but the Council tax increases relentlessly every year and we have paid it without complaining for many, many years. We would prefer to keep our house to pass to our family as have many of our neighbours who have had their houses passed down for over one hundred years but we are now at the point where we will have to sell the house and go down a valuation band or two. We would not choose to live in any other property but this regressive tax takes no account of ability to pay and leaves us no choice in choosing the property to live in as our Council tax is now about 22% of our income although our property valuation is totally outwith our control and worthless to us until we grudgingly sell the house.

Colin wrote:
How did we get from Council Tax to Iraq in the space of one message? I support what one person said recently, the tax should be based not on what people earn, but on the property they choose to live in.

We also used to think that Council tax should be based on the property which people live in back when we were both working full time all our working lives but we are now retired and on a fixed company pension therefore our income is the lowest it has ever been but the Council tax increases relentlessly every year and we have paid it without complaining for many, many years.

We would prefer to keep our house to pass to our family as have many of our neighbours who have had their houses passed down for over one hundred years but we are now at the point where we will have to sell the house and go down a valuation band or two.

We would not choose to live in any other property but this regressive tax takes no account of ability to pay and leaves us no choice in choosing the property to live in as our Council tax is now about 22% of our income although our property valuation is totally outwith our control and worthless to us until we grudgingly sell the house.

Local income tax as currently proposed will simply create situations where people with higher disposable income will not live in healthy mixed and growing communities but just join the bandwagon of living in the posh suburbs. This means they abandon their beneficial disposable income from sustaining local shops and helping their poorer neighbours. At least with council tax it can be beneficial for people with higher incomes to "stick around" in growing areas. How is the local income tax raised going to actually to benefit your own street, and area as opposed just being swallowed up?

Most households will be better off under a PROGRESSIVE local income tax system. The SSP has suggested such a system set at rates that will reduce costs for the majority while still raising the funds necessary to cover the income currently raised from Council tax. In contrast, the SNP proposal is for a flat-rate tax that they presumably picked up "off-the-peg" from the Adam Smith Institute: the wonderful Tory think-tank that gave us the Poll Tax. The SNP proposal fails to raise comparable funds to Council Tax and the shortfall will have to be made up via cuts, alternative taxes or from elswehere within the Executive budget. No indication as yet of which it is to be. Council tax has been with us for 15 years since the Tories adopted it as a fall-back position after the crushing of the Poll Tax. The Scottish Parliament has been in existence for 8 years. In that time the only contribution to the debate from the SNP has been to side with Labour to vote down the SSP's Scottish Service Tax bill on the grounds that it wasn't set locally. With a crucial election on the horizon they pop up with a poorly considered (and that's being kind) local taxation policy that won't raise sufficient funds, is Tory to the core and is not set locally (just to show that they can be as hypocritical as their New Labour nemesis). Even SNP supporters surely have to admit that their party isn't exactly setting itself up as much of an improvement on New Labour on this issue.

Most households will be better off under a PROGRESSIVE local income tax system. The SSP has suggested such a system set at rates that will reduce costs for the majority while still raising the funds necessary to cover the income currently raised from Council tax.

In contrast, the SNP proposal is for a flat-rate tax that they presumably picked up "off-the-peg" from the Adam Smith Institute: the wonderful Tory think-tank that gave us the Poll Tax.

The SNP proposal fails to raise comparable funds to Council Tax and the shortfall will have to be made up via cuts, alternative taxes or from elswehere within the Executive budget. No indication as yet of which it is to be.

Council tax has been with us for 15 years since the Tories adopted it as a fall-back position after the crushing of the Poll Tax. The Scottish Parliament has been in existence for 8 years. In that time the only contribution to the debate from the SNP has been to side with Labour to vote down the SSP's Scottish Service Tax bill on the grounds that it wasn't set locally. With a crucial election on the horizon they pop up with a poorly considered (and that's being kind) local taxation policy that won't raise sufficient funds, is Tory to the core and is not set locally (just to show that they can be as hypocritical as their New Labour nemesis). Even SNP supporters surely have to admit that their party isn't exactly setting itself up as much of an improvement on New Labour on this issue.

This argument is showing up a lot of people up as the very worst examples of the greedy middle class. Why on earth should pensioners pay the same as families with 2 people working? Its a disgraceful system and one that i can barely believe has been allowed to exist for so long. Replacing the Council Tax is another reason the vote New Labour out on May 3rd.

Well said Stuart Braithwaite ! People who benefit from the presently manifestly unfair Council Tax are not likely to be enthusiastic about the prospect of paying their rightful share towards the cost of local services that a progressive tax on income will involve. I do not feel any sympathy for such attitudes and I am bemused that the Labour Party, a party that my grandfather and father faithfully supported because it supposedly represented fairness and justice should feel that "hard working families" with joint or multiple incomes should take a free ride on the backs of pensioners living on fixed incomes. Then again the Labour Party that my grandfather and father supported was not the Labour Party of Bristow Muldoon, Tony Blair or recent mainifestations of Gordon Brown

Well said Stuart Braithwaite !

People who benefit from the presently manifestly unfair Council Tax are not likely to be enthusiastic about the prospect of paying their rightful share towards the cost of local services that a progressive tax on income will involve. I do not feel any sympathy for such attitudes and I am bemused that the Labour Party, a party that my grandfather and father faithfully supported because it supposedly represented fairness and justice should feel that "hard working families" with joint or multiple incomes should take a free ride on the backs of pensioners living on fixed incomes.
Then again the Labour Party that my grandfather and father supported was not the Labour Party of Bristow Muldoon, Tony Blair or recent mainifestations of Gordon Brown

Mr Thornton has a point, surely; can anyone answer his concerns? It's all very well to say the tax will depend on one's 'ability to pay' - but who the dickens will decide that??

I am voting SNP and can live with the tax proposal but i don't think it is ideal. Many people are pretty good at evading income tax just now and that will continue under this system- at least the rich and the self-employed do pay council tax! I sympathise with pensioners who have newly-valuable houses (although it's worth pointing out that such houses haven't been valued for 16 years!) and don't want to sell them. However, if you have a valuable asset, that does represent a genuine source of income, either by downsizing or through one of those dubious home income plans. Said pensioners did nothing to deserve the rise in their house price, yet they can make big money if they downsize. Meanwhile growing families squash into small houses with big mortgages. It's not the job of local taxation to fix the madness that is the property market. But we should remember there is more to "ability to pay" than income.

I am voting SNP and can live with the tax proposal but i don't think it is ideal. Many people are pretty good at evading income tax just now and that will continue under this system- at least the rich and the self-employed do pay council tax!

I sympathise with pensioners who have newly-valuable houses (although it's worth pointing out that such houses haven't been valued for 16 years!) and don't want to sell them. However, if you have a valuable asset, that does represent a genuine source of income, either by downsizing or through one of those dubious home income plans. Said pensioners did nothing to deserve the rise in their house price, yet they can make big money if they downsize. Meanwhile growing families squash into small houses with big mortgages.

It's not the job of local taxation to fix the madness that is the property market. But we should remember there is more to "ability to pay" than income.

[quote][bold]Clare[/bold] wrote: But that's always been the case, to be fair. People shouldn't be shocked that the SNP will raise costs on families to satisfy their one ambition of taking us out of Britain. If you don't like it- don't vote for them! I wont be![/quote] CLARE (EDINBURGH) and JANIS (DUMFRIES) Come clean.these two threads ....(the 1st two on the page)...............are written by the same "labour"person. Willing to challenge that statement, Jack???......................... ...................or any other scottish labour official?????????

Clare wrote:
But that's always been the case, to be fair. People shouldn't be shocked that the SNP will raise costs on families to satisfy their one ambition of taking us out of Britain. If you don't like it- don't vote for them! I wont be!

CLARE (EDINBURGH) and JANIS (DUMFRIES)
Come clean.these two threads ....(the 1st two on the page)...............are written by the same "labour"person.

Willing to challenge that statement, Jack???.........................
...................or any other scottish labour official?????????

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