Coalition Crisis As Libdems Reject Bid From Snp (from The Herald Election Site)

Prospects of a deal between the Scottish National Party leader and the LibDems stalled last night, after the smaller party flatly refused to give ground in its opposition to an independence referendum.

Alex Salmond today meets Green Party MSPs in formal talks about entering government together, as he moves quickly to put together a ruling partnership.

Talks with LibDems had been helped by the smaller party ruling out a deal with Labour, even if talks with the SNP fail. However, LibDem leader Nicol Stephen said last night he expected the SNP to form a minority administration, after the two party chiefs refused to shift their ground on the referendum question.

As Labour was shunned in Holyrood, the aftermath of last week's poor showing for the party throughout Britain led to Home Secretary John Reid quitting the cabinet from next month, when he said Tony Blair will step down.

His announcement yesterday that he will not contest the leadership, opting instead to support Gordon Brown as next party leader while "recharging his batteries", leaves the Chancellor without any cabinet challenger to him becoming the next Prime Minister.

The immediate aftermath of Thursday's vote left Mr Brown facing the growing likelihood that Alex Salmond would negotiate a three-party coalition with the bare minimum majority of 65 MSPs. The SNP leader had the largest group with 47 MSPs, with Labour on 46, Tories 17, LibDems 16, Greens two and Margo MacDonald as the sole Independent. She yesterday said she might stand as Presiding Officer, though the vote on George Reid's successor in that post is likely to be postponed this Wednesday, while coalition talks go on.

The moves towards a new partnership government gathered pace over the weekend, as party groups took stock, and the SNP tabled a compromise plan for a constitutional convention to help LibDems draw up detailed proposals for further devolved powers.

Labour leader Jack McConnell said he would leave space for the SNP leader to make the first moves but a spokesman said there is "still a complex game of chess over the next 28 days".

In London, John Reid's announcement that he will leave the cabinet this summer was unexpected. He said it would help Gordon Brown create a "fresh start" for Labour in government. The Home Secretary denied he was jumping before being pushed and made it clear that he would support the Chancellor, whom he praised as Labour's "pre-eminent politician".

While he described himself as Mr Brown's "friend", it is widely known the two men have not seen eye to eye. And while Mr Reid said he wanted to give the Chancellor the "maximum flexibility" to choose his new team, he failed to give precise details about why he felt he could not serve under his fellow Scot.

Tony Blair, who is expected to announce his departure timetable on Thursday, praised his Cabinet colleague as an "immense figure" in government. "Your political courage, your ability to analyse and get to the heart of an issue and your understanding of people, their concerns and their hopes, has been outstanding," he said in a letter to Mr Reid.

The revelation came as Labour continued to analyse last week's electoral hammering. A number of Labour MPs called for "radical change" from Mr Brown in a new government agenda with less spin, greater honesty and emphasis on social problems.

I think it's very disappointing that the Liberals have ruled out coalition. The next few weeks will be rather interesting...

there is no rule that says the largest party can command anyone else to govern with it. Labour were the largest party in Falirk for the last four years but the smaller SNP group ran the council with Independents. We ned to get used to the fact - as they do in the rest of Europe - that PR is about all sorts of deals. Salmond's arrogance doesn't help.

This is just negotiation, The political prostitutes were obviously not offered enough to drop their knickers. They were wise enough to stay clear of Labour.

It might be interesting if the SNP form a minority administration and get voted down at every turn, particularly the LIT. Under what conditions can a new election be called???

Aye yer right dawn and neither does anyones arrogance in defeat.

Re-run the election with clearer papers. Lets get it on !!!!

It is more arrogance of the LD's to expect the SNP to drop it's whole reason for being. It was elected on the platform of independence, so how can any coalition partner demand they drop that - rather stupid. Did they demand that Labour drop socialism when it went into coalition with them??

Has youtube got Pauline McNeill's speech for her Kelvin victory? I think her constituents should be reminded of what they have voted for as often as possible. Will the LibDems agree to an independent judicial enquiry into Douglas Alexander's election processes? I want to know this! Will they vote for McConnel along with the Tories to be FM? I'm starting to get very worried that Labour will create an unholy mess of our parliament. They clearly will stop at nothing. What a fantastic case in point when arguing for independence: Interference from London, anti-democratic democrats, refusing to call and congratulate the winner, a badly (fraudulently?) organised election, a compliant press. This is all hard-core Union sleaze.

Has youtube got Pauline McNeill's speech for her Kelvin victory? I think her constituents should be reminded of what they have voted for as often as possible.

Will the LibDems agree to an independent judicial enquiry into Douglas Alexander's election processes? I want to know this! Will they vote for McConnel along with the Tories to be FM?

I'm starting to get very worried that Labour will create an unholy mess of our parliament. They clearly will stop at nothing. What a fantastic case in point when arguing for independence: Interference from London, anti-democratic democrats, refusing to call and congratulate the winner, a badly (fraudulently?) organised election, a compliant press. This is all hard-core Union sleaze.

John Reid is going to help Gordon Brown create a "fresh start" for Labour.After last thursday's results they are almost johnny foreigners now ,I'm sorry but coronations are so 20th century.Go back to your own country Gordon,congratulations SNP,we will get rid of these betrayers one way or another.

Alex Salmond is not arrogant. You confuse a cheery positive countenance. Arrogance is belonging to the third nay fourth largest party and dictating terms. The Lib/Dems are not asked to embrace Independence only the future prospect of a democratic referendum. I think the Trade Descriptions Act should br invoked against the Lib/Dems...they are neither.

Your quite right. The SNP should tell them where to go and go it alone. That could be the answer. Let Alex form a minority government and propose a multi option referendum that has all the parties options available ie. Labour - No change, Tory - More power, Libs - More power, SNP - Independence If the other parties block this then they obviously do not have much faith in their voters and fear that the people might want to govern themselves. Not giving the people their right to vote on this including SNP and the other parties supporters will let everyone see them for what they are - repressive, and this would only benefit the SNP in the future.

Your quite right. The SNP should tell them where to go and go it alone.

That could be the answer. Let Alex form a minority government and propose a multi option referendum that has all the parties options available ie.

Labour - No change,
Tory - More power,
Libs - More power,
SNP - Independence

If the other parties block this then they obviously do not have much faith in their voters and fear that the people might want to govern themselves.

Not giving the people their right to vote on this including SNP and the other parties supporters will let everyone see them for what they are - repressive, and this would only benefit the SNP in the future.

Wouldn't a normal press be crucifying Labour for not congratulating Salmond? Would it not be hounding this move of anti-democratic 'democrats'? Would it not be asking searching questions about Douglas Alexander's role in the voting debacle?

Join the boycott of the anti-democratic 'Scottish' press:
http://www.ipetitions.com/petition/anti-Scottish/

[quote][bold]Alex Porter[/bold] wrote: Wouldn't a normal press be crucifying Labour for not congratulating Salmond? Would it not be hounding this move of anti-democratic 'democrats'? Would it not be asking searching questions about Douglas Alexander's role in the voting debacle? Join the boycott of the anti-democratic 'Scottish' press: http://www.ipetitions.com/petition/anti-Scottish/[/quote] I want to know where Douglas Alexander has disappeared to. Every hour he spends in hiding he looks like more and more of an electoral fraudster. We know what all you duplicitous scheming mafiosos are up to and we intend to send you all into political oblivion at the next electoral opportunity!!

Alex Porter wrote:
Wouldn't a normal press be crucifying Labour for not congratulating Salmond? Would it not be hounding this move of anti-democratic 'democrats'? Would it not be asking searching questions about Douglas Alexander's role in the voting debacle? Join the boycott of the anti-democratic 'Scottish' press: http://www.ipetitions.com/petition/anti-Scottish/

I want to know where Douglas Alexander has disappeared to. Every hour he spends in hiding he looks like more and more of an electoral fraudster.

We know what all you duplicitous scheming mafiosos are up to and we intend to send you all into political oblivion at the next electoral opportunity!!

What we need now is an opinion poll to remind politicians of all varieties how much support there is in Scotland for a referendum on the constitutional future, irrespective of which outcome you prefer. Last I heard it was around 80%. A party which claims to be both Liberal and Democratic has no moral authority whatsoever to oppose such a liberal and democratic referendum. Democracy is about the people having a choice, not about parties saying "we call ourselves liberal but you can only have a vote on policies we prefer" I think a vigil hut 2 outside the Scottish parliament may be in order.

What we need now is an opinion poll to remind politicians of all varieties how much support there is in Scotland for a referendum on the constitutional future, irrespective of which outcome you prefer. Last I heard it was around 80%. A party which claims to be both Liberal and Democratic has no moral authority whatsoever to oppose such a liberal and democratic referendum. Democracy is about the people having a choice, not about parties saying "we call ourselves liberal but you can only have a vote on policies we prefer"

I think a vigil hut 2 outside the Scottish parliament may be in order.

Ha ha....Yer buggered before you even start.

The next couple of weeks are going to be great. Brng it on.

Had hoped Pauline Macneils website - http://redkelvin.org/ would feature her great victory speech. hehe

[quote][bold]Alex Porter[/bold] wrote: Wouldn't a normal press be crucifying Labour for not congratulating Salmond? Would it not be hounding this move of anti-democratic 'democrats'? Would it not be asking searching questions about Douglas Alexander's role in the voting debacle? Join the boycott of the anti-democratic 'Scottish' press: http://www.ipetitions.com/petition/anti-Scottish/[/quote] Aye, very good, another ex pat wanting to boycott the scotish press. You can do this in Madrid very easily. Give us a break.

Alex Porter wrote:
Wouldn't a normal press be crucifying Labour for not congratulating Salmond? Would it not be hounding this move of anti-democratic 'democrats'? Would it not be asking searching questions about Douglas Alexander's role in the voting debacle? Join the boycott of the anti-democratic 'Scottish' press: http://www.ipetitions.com/petition/anti-Scottish/

Aye, very good, another ex pat wanting to boycott the scotish press. You can do this in Madrid very easily. Give us a break.

I wish Alex Salmond every success in forming a government. God bless him. He wont get any help from the others.

Johnny Foreigner wrote:
Ha ha....Yer buggered before you even start.

The next couple of weeks are going to be great. Brng it on.

No, we're just sorting out friends from foes. Stir the water. You know the old saying about what floats? And I see you have risen to the surface quickly.

John, are you telling me that these newspapers will not post copies of their newspaper around the world?

Join the boycott of the anti-democratic 'Scottish' press: http://www.ipetitions.com/petition/anti-Scottish/

I see bliar quick off mark with congrats to his right wing buddy Sarcozy. Think oor eck got a call ????

Brown talked about the SNP causing consitutional chaos from day 1. Labour have caused constitutional chaos before day 1.

Douglas Alexander: Where are you hiding?

[quote][bold]Craig Cockburn[/bold] wrote: What we need now is an opinion poll to remind politicians of all varieties how much support there is in Scotland for a referendum on the constitutional future, irrespective of which outcome you prefer. Last I heard it was around 80%. A party which claims to be both Liberal and Democratic has no moral authority whatsoever to oppose such a liberal and democratic referendum. Democracy is about the people having a choice, not about parties saying "we call ourselves liberal but you can only have a vote on policies we prefer" I think a vigil hut 2 outside the Scottish parliament may be in order.[/quote] Are you on something tonight? The opinion polls were right for the recent elections, were they not? And when did morals come into politics. Who told you about the 80%? Maybe one day we will engage in talking sense, from all sides of the spectrum before I may be accused of favour towards anyone.

Craig Cockburn wrote:
What we need now is an opinion poll to remind politicians of all varieties how much support there is in Scotland for a referendum on the constitutional future, irrespective of which outcome you prefer. Last I heard it was around 80%. A party which claims to be both Liberal and Democratic has no moral authority whatsoever to oppose such a liberal and democratic referendum. Democracy is about the people having a choice, not about parties saying "we call ourselves liberal but you can only have a vote on policies we prefer" I think a vigil hut 2 outside the Scottish parliament may be in order.

Are you on something tonight? The opinion polls were right for the recent elections, were they not? And when did morals come into politics. Who told you about the 80%?

Maybe one day we will engage in talking sense, from all sides of the spectrum before I may be accused of favour towards anyone.

No man is an island.....not even the mighty Mr. Salmond....

Alex nae mates. Funny how the SNP squeezed out the vote of the very parties who could save their skins right now.

How long do we give his minority government ??

[bold]The libdems are a disgrace calling themselves a democratic party. Their leader, Mr Stephens, confirmed their present undemocratic position; setting them up to be the ridiculed through out Scotland and Internationally: "I made it clear to him that unless and until the SNP removes the fundamental barrier of a referendum on independence during the next four years, there can be no coalition." This is the type of statement you would have expected to hear in a banana republic or the old USSR. Why on earth does Mr Stephens think it is his right to grant or not, a voice to the people of Scotland on Independence? He, I assume, is against this proposal and would have an opportunity to put his arguments to us for our consideration. Mr Stephens has to grow up, shake off the obvious, yet clumsy, interference of Westminster and get on with this massive opportunity to deliver most of his parties manifesto in Scotland with a stable coalition government in Edinburgh and at the same time securing the democratic principal in Scottish politics with a referendum. Anything less is scandalous and will be remembered by voters at the next election. If Mr Stephens thinks he can get away with this and have a rerun of the election at the end of May. I will predict that the Libdems will be decimated with Mr Stephens being discarded to the dustbin of Scottish politics � and rightfully so.[/bold]

The libdems are a disgrace calling themselves a democratic party. Their leader, Mr Stephens, confirmed their present undemocratic position; setting them up to be the ridiculed through out Scotland and Internationally:

"I made it clear to him that unless and until the SNP removes the fundamental barrier of a referendum on independence during the next four years, there can be no coalition."

This is the type of statement you would have expected to hear in a banana republic or the old USSR.

Why on earth does Mr Stephens think it is his right to grant or not, a voice to the people of Scotland on Independence? He, I assume, is against this proposal and would have an opportunity to put his arguments to us for our consideration.

Mr Stephens has to grow up, shake off the obvious, yet clumsy, interference of Westminster and get on with this massive opportunity to deliver most of his parties manifesto in Scotland with a stable coalition government in Edinburgh and at the same time securing the democratic principal in Scottish politics with a referendum.

Anything less is scandalous and will be remembered by voters at the next election. If Mr Stephens thinks he can get away with this and have a rerun of the election at the end of May. I will predict that the Libdems will be decimated with Mr Stephens being discarded to the dustbin of Scottish politics � and rightfully so.

Hopefully Salmond will win the nomination for First Minister and Nicola Sturgeon will get Deputy First Minister. I think they'll make a great, positive team for Scotland. And Nicola will be much better than Nicol Stephen. A minority administration may not be as difficult as some think. With the Greens on board (and perhaps given a deputy minister post - environment?), the SNP should get a tax change through. They would have had to compromise on this with the Lib Dems anyway, if they were in a coalition, so I think what we'll see is an informal coalition. Maybe they'll get support from the Tories too for some of their business policies. Salmond could still make a success of it. They won't get the referendum but that let's them get on with governing and makes the point that the Scottish people are still entitled to a referendum which other so-called democrats seem desperate to deny them. Then there's the Labour Party who seem set to turn their back on democracy altogether, so long as they can find a way of ousting the SNP. When are they going to realise that they have lost? Next thing you know Celtic will be demanding a recount of Saturday's game with Rangers.

[quote][bold]Alex Porter[/bold] wrote: John, are you telling me that these newspapers will not post copies of their newspaper around the world? Join the boycott of the anti-democratic 'Scottish' press: http://www.ipetitions.com/petition/anti-Scottish/ [/quote] If you are so anti Scottish press, you should try coming back and working here and trying to argue your case. Given your repetitive message I say again ....."another ex pat wanting to boycott the scotish press. You can do this in Madrid very easily". Re the press, what has changed recently? Since day dot the press always favour one party, it can be Tory, labour or whoever, but because it wasn't SNP doesn't mean they are anti democratic. They may have a bias, and it may be unfair depending on your point of view, but I would hardly say it is the Russian press. This website wasn't at all favourable to the SNP and yet, surprise surprise, you can get the chnace to criticise them on their own website. Now that's democracy for your. Can you do the same on the Labour, SNP or Tory websites?

Alex Porter wrote:
John, are you telling me that these newspapers will not post copies of their newspaper around the world? Join the boycott of the anti-democratic 'Scottish' press: http://www.ipetitions.com/petition/anti-Scottish/

If you are so anti Scottish press, you should try coming back and working here and trying to argue your case. Given your repetitive message I say again ....."another ex pat wanting to boycott the scotish press. You can do this in Madrid very easily".

Re the press, what has changed recently? Since day dot the press always favour one party, it can be Tory, labour or whoever, but because it wasn't SNP doesn't mean they are anti democratic. They may have a bias, and it may be unfair depending on your point of view, but I would hardly say it is the Russian press. This website wasn't at all favourable to the SNP and yet, surprise surprise, you can get the chnace to criticise them on their own website. Now that's democracy for your. Can you do the same on the Labour, SNP or Tory websites?

Gregor,

Are you sure that Salmond will be voted in as FM? I'm not. I think that Brown and Ming Campbell may have made a deal to keep the SNP out of office.

And please, don't put a Green in the environment job, that would be a monumental blunder. I give you the word 'Oil' then think of the pressure on a Green environment minister to resign....

U all seem to be missing 1 vital point Lib-dems like scottish labour dont have the power to negotiate they are a london party and this is a reserved matter Labour ,Lib-dems take order from afar

John,
Where I live is totally irrelevant. Anyway, you give me a job where I can earn what I earn here and I'll be on the next plane. The press in Scotland, in no way fairly represented the parties at the election. It was a disgrace. They are all owned outside Scotland and act against the interests of Scotland making it anti-democratic and indeed anti-Scottish.

Join the boycott of the anti-democratic 'Scottish' press: http://www.ipetitions.com/petition/anti-Scottish/

Peter said....."The libdems are a disgrace calling themselves a democratic party. Their leader, Mr Stephens, confirmed their present undemocratic position; setting them up to be the ridiculed through out Scotland and Internationally":........did LibDems not state, prior to a democratic election what their stance was and the voters could base their votes on that? Hardly undemocratic. Peter said.........."Why on earth does Mr Stephens think it is his right to grant or not, a voice to the people of Scotland on Independence? He, I assume, is against this proposal and would have an opportunity to put his arguments to us for our consideration"...........you don't need to assume he is against independance, he is, as stated umpteen times prior to the election. No change in their policy. Just like the SNP said they would go to the country if they won the election, but becasue they scraped through everyone else is to blame. IF you are so sure everyone wants indepedance, why no more votes

Peter said....."The libdems are a disgrace calling themselves a democratic party. Their leader, Mr Stephens, confirmed their present undemocratic position; setting them up to be the ridiculed through out Scotland and Internationally":........did LibDems not state, prior to a democratic election what their stance was and the voters could base their votes on that? Hardly undemocratic.

Peter said.........."Why on earth does Mr Stephens think it is his right to grant or not, a voice to the people of Scotland on Independence? He, I assume, is against this proposal and would have an opportunity to put his arguments to us for our consideration"...........you don't need to assume he is against independance, he is, as stated umpteen times prior to the election. No change in their policy. Just like the SNP said they would go to the country if they won the election, but becasue they scraped through everyone else is to blame. IF you are so sure everyone wants indepedance, why no more votes

'
Embra Calling Embra Calling this is Lord , oops ah mean Sir......................calling .Can you hear me Embra. .
.

The Lib Dems' position is disgusting and indefensible, and I say that as a Lib Dem voter. (Although at this stage, I've voted Lib Dem for the last time.) Most LD voters want a referendum. Most people in Scotland across ALL parties want a referendum. The party that won the election wants a referendum. Who the hell is Nicol Stephen, leader of the LEAST popular party in the country, to stand in the way of what the Scottish people quite clearly want? And people call Salmond arrogant?

Diect London rule anyone? Oh joy.

I must concur with Alex Porter, Pauline McNeill's acceptance speech beggered belief. I was speechless, pardon the pun, at the belligerent and snarling rant that eminated from this individual. Margaret Curren's tone was equally as offensive. I do not give up my taxes for ASBO types. No matter the colour of the party rossette, I, as a Scot, do not expect my elected representatives to behave like scruff no matter what stress or fear of losing the job or perceived comments are received from the floor. Do these two act like this in the chamber or on commitee?

I'm suprised that a party that has the word democrat in its party name is not willing to afford the Scots their democratic right especially since they signed the "Claim of Right" at the Scottish Constitutional Convention which says: - "Scotland's Parliament: Scotland's Right" Their job would be:- [bold]Securing the Legislation[/bold] - In order to ensure successive Westminster Parliaments do not attempt to dismantle a Scottish Parliament the Convention expects the Westminster Parliament to move a special Declaration before passing the legislation creating the Scottish Parliament. [bold]�This Declaration will state that the Westminster Parliament will not remove or amend the Scottish Parliament without consulting directly the people of Scotland and the Scottish Parliament itself.�[/bold] [bold]A Claim of Right for Scotland �We, gathered as the Scottish Constitutional Convention, do hereby acknowledge the sovereign right of the Scottish people to determine the form of Government best suited to their needs, and do hereby declare and pledge that in all our actions and deliberations their interests shall be paramount. � We further declare and pledge that our actions and deliberations shall be directed to the following ends: To agree a scheme for an Assembly or Parliament for Scotland'; To mobilise Scottish opinion and ensure the approval of the Scottish people for that scheme; and To assert the right of the Scottish people to secure the implementation of that scheme.[/bold] Members of the Convention include the[bold] Labour Party[/bold] , [bold]Scottish Liberal Democrats,[/bold] Scottish Democratic Left, Orkney and Shetland Movement, Scottish Green Party, Scottish Trades Union Congress, Regional, District and Island Councils and the Campaign for a Scottish Parliament. Membership also includes the main Scottish Churches, the Federation of Small Businesses, ethnic minority representatives and the Scottish Women's Forum. In 1997, Tony Blair refused to endorse the Claim of Right, declaring 'Sovereignty remains with me as an English MP and that is the way it will stay.' All quotes are taken word for word from �The Claim of Right 1988� Surely the Lib Dems and Labour should be reminded of this fact. The SNP declined to join this S.C.C. on the grounds that the question of Independence would never be part of the deliberations. I think that this shows that Lib Dems should think before making sensationalist claims. I wish Alex Salmond all the best in forming a minority administration, and I applaud the Greens for having the right attitude to play a part in coalition.

I'm suprised that a party that has the word democrat in its party name is not willing to afford the Scots their democratic right especially since they signed the "Claim of Right" at the Scottish Constitutional Convention which says: -

"Scotland's Parliament: Scotland's Right"
Their job would be:-

Securing the Legislation - In order to ensure successive Westminster Parliaments do not attempt to dismantle a Scottish Parliament the Convention expects the Westminster Parliament to move a special Declaration before passing the legislation creating the Scottish Parliament. �This Declaration will state that the Westminster Parliament will not remove or amend the Scottish Parliament without consulting directly the people of Scotland and the Scottish Parliament itself.�
A Claim of Right for Scotland
�We, gathered as the Scottish Constitutional Convention, do hereby acknowledge the sovereign right of the Scottish people to determine the form of Government best suited to their needs, and do hereby declare and pledge that in all our actions and deliberations their interests shall be paramount. �
We further declare and pledge that our actions and deliberations shall be directed to the following ends:
To agree a scheme for an Assembly or Parliament for Scotland';
To mobilise Scottish opinion and ensure the approval of the Scottish people for that scheme; and
To assert the right of the Scottish people to secure the implementation of that scheme.
Members of the Convention include the Labour Party , Scottish Liberal Democrats, Scottish Democratic Left, Orkney and Shetland Movement, Scottish Green Party, Scottish Trades Union Congress, Regional, District and Island Councils and the Campaign for a Scottish Parliament. Membership also includes the main Scottish Churches, the Federation of Small Businesses, ethnic minority representatives and the Scottish Women's Forum.

In 1997, Tony Blair refused to endorse the Claim of Right, declaring 'Sovereignty remains with me as an English MP and that is the way it will stay.'

All quotes are taken word for word from �The Claim of Right 1988�

Surely the Lib Dems and Labour should be reminded of this fact.

The SNP declined to join this S.C.C. on the grounds that the question of Independence would never be part of the deliberations.

I think that this shows that Lib Dems should think before making sensationalist claims.

I wish Alex Salmond all the best in forming a minority administration, and I applaud the Greens for having the right attitude to play a part in coalition.

the snp should govern by themselves. this parliament has a fixed term so the snp will enjoy the support of other parties on a whole raft of policies, although not at this time on the issue of independence. just as labour members campaigned against their own devolution bill in 1979, they came to support devolution during the thatcher years and will take the next step in time as well. the lib dems dont deserve any part in government. they came fourth on thursday and lost ground. as for the legal contests, there were also five labour seats where wasted ballot papers outnumbered labour's margin. they are just such bad losers. they had their observers at the count to question decisions at the time, as i was able to do at the count i attended. what i am really concerned about is the council results. although i think i understand the system very well, i can only find out results of who has been elected and who has not. four days after the election there are no published results. i have spoken to a candidate that was elected who has not even been given this information. shocking, but it was the labour government that set up the system.

the snp should govern by themselves. this parliament has a fixed term so the snp will enjoy the support of other parties on a whole raft of policies, although not at this time on the issue of independence. just as labour members campaigned against their own devolution bill in 1979, they came to support devolution during the thatcher years and will take the next step in time as well. the lib dems dont deserve any part in government. they came fourth on thursday and lost ground.

as for the legal contests, there were also five labour seats where wasted ballot papers outnumbered labour's margin. they are just such bad losers. they had their observers at the count to question decisions at the time, as i was able to do at the count i attended.

what i am really concerned about is the council results. although i think i understand the system very well, i can only find out results of who has been elected and who has not. four days after the election there are no published results. i have spoken to a candidate that was elected who has not even been given this information.

shocking, but it was the labour government that set up the system.

Pro-union parties won dramatically more seats under this absurd PR system. A system that was proposed by the SNP and the LibDems. The people of Scotland have spoken. End ths farce of talking about independence and get on with trying to build a better Scotland. Salmond may feel elated at winning more seats but without a coalition partner he's FUBARed. Labour only lost 4 seats - and with a poor leader in Citizen Jack, Iraq and Blair frankly the SNP are **** in the wind if they think that independence is roond the corner.

Pro-union parties won dramatically more seats under this absurd PR system. A system that was proposed by the SNP and the LibDems.

The people of Scotland have spoken. End ths farce of talking about independence and get on with trying to build a better Scotland.

Salmond may feel elated at winning more seats but without a coalition partner he's FUBARed.

Labour only lost 4 seats - and with a poor leader in Citizen Jack, Iraq and Blair frankly the SNP are **** in the wind if they think that independence is roond the corner.

a couple of points I live in Falkirk and I still hope that we can once again have an S.N.P. independant administration rather than the small minded bunch of halfwits that make up the local labour party.They will set our area back twenty years if they take control .
secondly I too dont like it when wee dougie is not in clear view he is usually up to something his uncle Gordies thought up. and finally
where is knuckles reid heading ? surely not back to the land of his spawning

The Lib dems wont do a deal with Labour

The Lib Dems wont do a deal with the SNP

The Lib Dems will never be the largest party.

So, what is the point of the lib dems? For are they for?

They have been given 2 opportunities to influence the governing of Scotland, giving them a platform to push their policies, and they wont take either!

People who voted for them must be mighty fed up.

The are now the Party of the Wasted Vote - "vote LIb Dem and we promise to do nothing"!

The silly billy 'argument' that if you add all the other parties together against the one that actually won in terms of more seats,councils and list MSPs i.e. The Winners - then taken to an illogical conclusion .......probably no winner would ever win? I hope Mr Salmond pursues, as First Minister leading his winning party, the kind of positive and beneficial policies for Scottish interests that if they were to be opposed - it would make the 'opposition' parties look more like the malicious, spiteful and incompetent 'parcel of rogues' that made them unelectable on Thursday. It is almost divine retribution to think that it could have been Lapdougie Alexander, and the rest of the Lost Boys of Labour, that disenfranchised their own 'could do better' supporters by making such a pig's ear of the ballot paper design.

The silly billy 'argument' that if you add all the other parties together against the one that actually won in terms of more seats,councils and list MSPs i.e. The Winners - then taken to an illogical conclusion .......probably no winner would ever win?
I hope Mr Salmond pursues, as First Minister leading his winning party, the kind of positive and beneficial policies for Scottish interests that if they were to be opposed - it would make the 'opposition' parties look more like the malicious, spiteful and incompetent 'parcel of rogues' that made them unelectable on Thursday. It is almost divine retribution to think that it could have been Lapdougie Alexander, and the rest of the Lost Boys of Labour, that disenfranchised their own 'could do better' supporters by making such a pig's ear of the ballot paper design.

Wallace,
The lib Dems dont need to go into a formal coalition to excercise their power over the SNP or Labour in this parliament, they can vote for or against bills from both sides as they please, make or destroy the Lab / SNP plans coming to life or not as they wish- without the need for a restrictive coalition agreement. They can effectivle cherry pick from both sides to suit themsleves.

forgot to add above.

This way the Lib Dems can say they are satisfying their voters - vote with the SNP for local taxation plans. And vote against the SNP on a referendum bill. And they can work like that to their advantage.

Now the Nats or Labour might not like it. But it's politics, and this looks like a classical political move.

If the Lib Dems or Labour continue with this purile, immature display of "spitting oot the dummy" then it will not only damage both parties but voter confidence also this could have a very negative effect on the democratic process. If the SNP continue into minority government and the opposition prevents key policies from existing especially the abolition of the Council Tax, Removal of Student Debt in spite of the shocking tactics of the Scottish Print Media, this will only strenghten their position and 4 years from now people will probably help to ensure that they have a majority that makes the opposition parties appear amateur . Proposed legal action by Labour members will show them up as petty. The Govan Legal Centre that is also considering taking legal action is a renowned supporter of individuals who wish to disrupt the progress of democracy. All parties must have lost potential votes throughout this fiasco of spoilt ballot papers. A serious case of Labour 'sour grapes'.

If the Lib Dems or Labour continue with this purile, immature display of "spitting oot the dummy" then it will not only damage both parties but voter confidence also this could have a very negative effect on the democratic process. If the SNP continue into minority government and the opposition prevents key policies from existing especially the abolition of the Council Tax, Removal of Student Debt in spite of the shocking tactics of the Scottish Print Media, this will only strenghten their position and 4 years from now people will probably help to ensure that they have a majority that makes the opposition parties appear amateur .

Proposed legal action by Labour members will show them up as petty. The Govan Legal Centre that is also considering taking legal action is a renowned supporter of individuals who wish to disrupt the progress of democracy.

All parties must have lost potential votes throughout this fiasco of spoilt ballot papers. A serious case of Labour 'sour grapes'.

You might be shocked a little, or amused, bemused or insulted at the Economist's current web site quiz Scotland and England quiz & answers. Hard to believe that's how we're viewed, but interesting not many about England really.

http://www.economist.com/diversions/quiz.cfm?mode=mark&quizname=scotlandandenglandquiz

To Johnny Foreigner! I see your points - however it will not work out like that! The SNP and or Labour will get all the political credit for anything that meets with public approval! As for the rest of the Lib Dem programme - that will not have an earthly of being introduced! Not now! Jack McConnell and the Labour Party are deeply cynical politicians and the Lib Dems will be eaten alive by them! Also the Lib Dems have also set themselves up to be made to look like reactionary Unionists! Salmond is an infinitely more able politician than Stephen and Salmond will take the opportunity now to make him look an idiot and worse! I expect a challange now to Stephen - but it will not be Tavish Scott who was responsible for an inept election campaign! A great many Lib Dem supporters actually support a referendum - especially one that offers greater powers for Scots parliament but thier Party leadership rejected that out of hand! No they will be lucky to withstand the backlash from thier own members, because it is them who will take the flak for Mings secret deal with Brown! They were elected to look out for Scottish intersts and not Westminsters! They will not get away with it! The SNP could put forward a LIT bill that the Lib Dems dont like for reasons best known to themselves! What happens then? Will the Lib Dems support a full judicial inquiry into the elections so far they have been silent on that! Let me guess - No No No - its not in our manifesto! Is that the stance they are going to take on everything! I think that they are commiting political suicide! After English council elections they cant run and hide there as there are a lot less safe seats for them to run to! Ming might go the way of Charlie soon!? Riddance to them for all I care! They will get squeezed ruthlessly at the next general election by both Labour and Tory in what will be the dirtiest Brit election ever! No sitting on the opposition benches at Holyrood is a monumental political error! Better a coalition with the SNP than Labour - at least they get more from the SNP than Labour and more kudos with the Scots electorate before next Brit election!?

To Johnny Foreigner!

I see your points - however it will not work out like that! The SNP and or Labour will get all the political credit for anything that meets with public approval! As for the rest of the Lib Dem programme - that will not have an earthly of being introduced! Not now!
Jack McConnell and the Labour Party are deeply cynical politicians and the Lib Dems will be eaten alive by them!
Also the Lib Dems have also set themselves up to be made to look like reactionary Unionists! Salmond is an infinitely more able politician than Stephen and Salmond will take the opportunity now to make him look an idiot and worse!
I expect a challange now to Stephen - but it will not be Tavish Scott who was responsible for an inept election campaign!
A great many Lib Dem supporters actually support a referendum - especially one that offers greater powers for Scots parliament but thier Party leadership rejected that out of hand!
No they will be lucky to withstand the backlash from thier own members, because it is them who will take the flak for Mings secret deal with Brown!
They were elected to look out for Scottish intersts and not Westminsters! They will not get away with it!
The SNP could put forward a LIT bill that the Lib Dems dont like for reasons best known to themselves! What happens then?
Will the Lib Dems support a full judicial inquiry into the elections so far they have been silent on that! Let me guess - No No No - its not in our manifesto! Is that the stance they are going to take on everything!

I think that they are commiting political suicide! After English council elections they cant run and hide there as there are a lot less safe seats for them to run to! Ming might go the way of Charlie soon!?

Riddance to them for all I care! They will get squeezed ruthlessly at the next general election by both Labour and Tory in what will be the dirtiest Brit election ever! No sitting on the opposition benches at Holyrood is a monumental political error! Better a coalition with the SNP than Labour - at least they get more from the SNP than Labour and more kudos with the Scots electorate before next Brit election!?

George,

I checked out your link and i am rather angry about the one-sided nature of the quiz and their incorrect assumption in question 1 about Darien.

I emailed them with the correct response!!

I'll let you know if they reply.

The Lib/Dem in Scotland have been told what to do by those with a lot to lose. The Labour party in Scotland have been told what to do by those with a lot to lose. The Conservitive part in Scotland have been told what to do by those with a lot to lose. And none of those who would lose must be in London. - Each of the above could hold real power in an independent Scotland. The SNP are the only party whose survival as a party is in doubt in an independent Scotland. The individuals of course will survive and do well, but the party may be gone in a reorganisation of parties into the left - Labour, the right - Conservative, and the middle the National party or Lib/Dem or an amalgamation of them both. Why then the opposition to the SNP and a referendum? Clearly something else is deeply concerning party bosses in London, and the Scottish bum-boys have to obey despite where their own best interests lie. I think the answer is to do with real information being made available to the Scottish (and English) public. 35% for independence despite all that venom, bile, lies, and deceit. What is Nicol afraid of ? what is buried he wants to stay dead? what is that faint odour and shifty look ? What does he know that we don't and will find out with Salmon as FM?

The Lib/Dem in Scotland have been told what to do by those with a lot to lose. The Labour party in Scotland have been told what to do by those with a lot to lose. The Conservitive part in Scotland have been told what to do by those with a lot to lose. And none of those who would lose must be in London. - Each of the above could hold real power in an independent Scotland.

The SNP are the only party whose survival as a party is in doubt in an independent Scotland. The individuals of course will survive and do well, but the party may be gone in a reorganisation of parties into the left - Labour, the right - Conservative, and the middle the National party or Lib/Dem or an amalgamation of them both.

Why then the opposition to the SNP and a referendum? Clearly something else is deeply concerning party bosses in London, and the Scottish bum-boys have to obey despite where their own best interests lie.

I think the answer is to do with real information being made available to the Scottish (and English) public. 35% for independence despite all that venom, bile, lies, and deceit.

What is Nicol afraid of ? what is buried he wants to stay dead? what is that faint odour and shifty look ? What does he know that we don't and will find out with Salmon as FM?

Alex Porter, listen to yourself. The Lib Dems MUST do what the SNP tell them. The Greens should do the same. 33% dictate to the rest. Typical NAT arrogance. The only person stopping Salmond from becoming First Minister is himself. If the SNP drop a policy - the referendum - which they've already watered down - they'll get a deal with the Libs. But Salmond is in a position he's never faced in his life before - having to compromise. The arithmetic is simple Pro-referendum 50. Antis 79. Why doesn't he just forget about it for the next four years and get on with the job he says he wants? Now that you're back in Madrid (I thought you were coming back to Scotland for good) maybe you can tell us what happens there after elections that don't produce majorities? But if that's too embarrassing, I'll do it for you. They COMPROMISE. And if a party makes demands that others find unacceptable then even if it has the most seats it loses its chance to govern and others step in. That's what happened TWICE in succession in Catalunya when the big-headed nationalist leader Artur Mas (a bit like Eck but better looking) led the biggest party but insisted on everyone else dancing to his tune. The Left nationalists and the Catalan Greens told him to GTF and formed a coalition with the Socialists (PSC). In fact the PSC even brought back a cabinet minister from Madrid to head the government and no one complained. Now, I hear John Reid might be looking for a new job. How would that suit?

Alex Porter, listen to yourself. The Lib Dems MUST do what the SNP tell them. The Greens should do the same. 33% dictate to the rest. Typical NAT arrogance.

The only person stopping Salmond from becoming First Minister is himself. If the SNP drop a policy - the referendum - which they've already watered down - they'll get a deal with the Libs. But Salmond is in a position he's never faced in his life before - having to compromise.

The arithmetic is simple Pro-referendum 50. Antis 79. Why doesn't he just forget about it for the next four years and get on with the job he says he wants?

Now that you're back in Madrid (I thought you were coming back to Scotland for good) maybe you can tell us what happens there after elections that don't produce majorities?

But if that's too embarrassing, I'll do it for you. They COMPROMISE. And if a party makes demands that others find unacceptable then even if it has the most seats it loses its chance to govern and others step in. That's what happened TWICE in succession in Catalunya when the big-headed nationalist leader Artur Mas (a bit like Eck but better looking) led the biggest party but insisted on everyone else dancing to his tune. The Left nationalists and the Catalan Greens told him to GTF and formed a coalition with the Socialists (PSC).

In fact the PSC even brought back a cabinet minister from Madrid to head the government and no one complained.

Now, I hear John Reid might be looking for a new job. How would that suit?

McShimmy

"35% for independence"

We were told for weeks that the election wasn't about independence. Some of us said, 'aye, right, wait and see what they say if they win.'

Didn't take long, did it?

The overwhelming majority of Scots voted for political parties (Lab, LD, Cons) opposed to independence. This election is not a mandate for independence but rather a rebuke to the independence movement. Mr Salmond, get over 50% of the voting public to support independence then you've got a mandate. Well done to the LDs for sticking to their guns. Don't sell the Scottish people out for a promise of power sharing.

Stu%f, them Alex. Go it alone!

Why are all you anti-SNP folk afraid of a referendum? - brain washed by the spin doctors of the labour fear-mongers perhaps?

I've not heard one single person suggest that because the SNP won and the country needs stable government that the Tories should back them yet wit 17 seats it would be a more stable coalition than an SNP/LD deal. The largest party has no authority to demand another party joins it in government. It does have the authority to seek to form a government. Salmond's tried that with the Lib Dems but they've, quite rightly and properly, stuck to the position they made public from as far back as autumn 2006 so it shouldn't have come as any surprise to him. The SNP should stop deluding themselves that the victory was anything to do with support for indepdence. It was a vote for change - but that also means a change of the Lib Dems from government too does it not? With some humility the SNP could run a coalition government but they will need to convince the people of Scotland and other parties that they are interested in delivering better health, education and environment. At the moment it seems that they would set aside the chance to do all that in a stable government simply because they are unprepared to put these things before independence and that will make them look increasingly bad in the eyes of people who voted for them not for a referendum but for change and progress. But let's be clear the very same people who are now attacking the Lib Dems for not doing a deal are very likely the same people who've attacked them in the past for selling their soul to go in with the Labour party. You can't have it both ways and it seems the Lib Dems don't unlike some Nats.

Billy

Well said. I've got new found respect for the Lib Dems now that they've stuck firmly to their principles. I voted SNP for a change but I always assumed there would be enough Lib Dems to moderate them and stop them from taking us to independence. I voted SNP cos I thought it would be safe to do so. So yes I'm glad the SNP won but I'm even more glad the lib dems are sticking to their guns and saying no to a referendum.

I'm beginning to wonder if the SNP and their members are actually the stupidest people in Scotland. Let's for one moment take their proposition on an independence referendum. Put everything else to one side and suppose the Lib Dems agreed to do a deal including a referendum, what do you think would happen? They Lib Dems couldn't whip their group over the Christmas Day Trading bill let alone a major piece of constitutional decision making! They would at best split and there would be no majority in parliament and the Bill would fall at Stage 1. It is the most obvious point in the world. I can't believe that you have all fallen for Salmond's spin on this - it's just mindblowingly gullible! No parliamentary majority means you don't ever get a referendum on independence. Doh.

No Hugh I would suggest the stupiest people in Scotland fall into 2 categories 1. Those who did'nt vote and 2. Those who voted Labour thinking that wee Joke and his army of political pygmies will ever do anything other than line their own pockets! Enough said

And so the real horse trading begins... Not really much of a suprise the Nicol Stevenson refuses to even talk to the SNP until they drop their referendum proposal but its a very dangerous game that he is playing. There has been alot of debate about the true state of the current Scots psyche but one factor has remained constant, over 80% of the population would welcome a vote on Scotlands Constitutional settlement. For a "Democrat" to ignore this and refuse to give the option to the voters - especially from a party that just got badly beaten into 4th place - is a high risk strategy. However, there are dangers for the SNP too in its negotiations. The most persuasive argument against the SNP has been the accusation that any vote for the nationalists will provoke chaos and turmoil. A minority administration brought down within its first 6mths (especially if labour is experiancing a temporary bounce from a Gordon Brown coronation) could be a disaster for progressive politics and lead to the shelving of the "Scottish Question" for a decade. I would advise that the SNP call the Liberal Democrats bluff, park the independence referendum for the term of this parliment and instead push for a vote on a large increase in executive powers - specifically "Full Fiscal Autonomy". This is very close to the Democrats stated position and could be close to impossible for them to refuse - and if they did, completely expose them to accusations of wrecking the Parliment. People back winners, and its important that the SNP are seen in this light. A successful 4 year term in government, capped off with an overwhelming majority backing massive new powers for the parliment would be a huge step forward. I know there are hardliners within the SNP that would oppose the dropping of an independence referendum for the next 4 years, but this can be legitimately sold to them that there is a unionist alliance against the SNP that currently have the numbers to block the legislation. It should not be forgotten what is happening in England too, as there is the strong likelyhood that the Conservatives will regain power in Westminister at the next election - and that backdrop will change everything north of the border. Call their bluff Alex, and move Scotland forward!

And so the real horse trading begins...

Not really much of a suprise the Nicol Stevenson refuses to even talk to the SNP until they drop their referendum proposal but its a very dangerous game that he is playing. There has been alot of debate about the true state of the current Scots psyche but one factor has remained constant, over 80% of the population would welcome a vote on Scotlands Constitutional settlement. For a "Democrat" to ignore this and refuse to give the option to the voters - especially from a party that just got badly beaten into 4th place - is a high risk strategy.

However, there are dangers for the SNP too in its negotiations. The most persuasive argument against the SNP has been the accusation that any vote for the nationalists will provoke chaos and turmoil. A minority administration brought down within its first 6mths (especially if labour is experiancing a temporary bounce from a Gordon Brown coronation) could be a disaster for progressive politics and lead to the shelving of the "Scottish Question" for a decade.

I would advise that the SNP call the Liberal Democrats bluff, park the independence referendum for the term of this parliment and instead push for a vote on a large increase in executive powers - specifically "Full Fiscal Autonomy". This is very close to the Democrats stated position and could be close to impossible for them to refuse - and if they did, completely expose them to accusations of wrecking the Parliment.

People back winners, and its important that the SNP are seen in this light. A successful 4 year term in government, capped off with an overwhelming majority backing massive new powers for the parliment would be a huge step forward. I know there are hardliners within the SNP that would oppose the dropping of an independence referendum for the next 4 years, but this can be legitimately sold to them that there is a unionist alliance against the SNP that currently have the numbers to block the legislation. It should not be forgotten what is happening in England too, as there is the strong likelyhood that the Conservatives will regain power in Westminister at the next election - and that backdrop will change everything north of the border.

Call their bluff Alex, and move Scotland forward!

Having to work overseas, abd currently writing from the home land of rice and take-aways, I think many expats have a better grasp of Scottish and UK politics than most. (This should stir some comment) Not so many moons ago we have one of our last bastions of shipbuilding seeking the Scottish (Labour & LibDem) executive to spend money in Scotland for new vessels. Cloth ears were in evidence. The yard in question is economical, it is viable, it is competitive. We have seen a down turn in offshore activity and jobs, after Gordon threw a windfall tax the way of the companies that produce the oil. This has had a knock-on effect into the Drilling sector, the supply vessel sector, the manpower sector, the shore based supply sector, which has kept the possible activity depressed. The LibDems have sat in Holyrood with Labour for 4 years, with no inspirational, no inovational and definitely no radical political or idealistic thoughts. Here is a chance for the SCOTTISH LibDems to stand up and become a true force and be counted, and stand apart from Mings London instructions. Here is chance being squandered for their last 4 years of sharing with Labour to share their misgivings with Alex Salmond and help Scotland go onto a new plane. Election events in France where Socialists are now out and right wing is in. SNP is a mix not a right wing not a left wing, but looking to advance Scotland, with a FREE referendum, with no limit on options for the people to decide. The freedom to decide at the voter level appears to be sought to be denied by the LibDems. What do they stand for? They signed up for the options in 1990's, they have taken part in the assembly since, so why are you not prepared to allow "We the People" a free selection in 3 years time. They say a week is a long time in politics.

Having to work overseas, abd currently writing from the home land of rice and take-aways, I think many expats have a better grasp of Scottish and UK politics than most. (This should stir some comment)
Not so many moons ago we have one of our last bastions of shipbuilding seeking the Scottish (Labour & LibDem) executive to spend money in Scotland for new vessels. Cloth ears were in evidence. The yard in question is economical, it is viable, it is competitive.
We have seen a down turn in offshore activity and jobs, after Gordon threw a windfall tax the way of the companies that produce the oil. This has had a knock-on effect into the Drilling sector, the supply vessel sector, the manpower sector, the shore based supply sector, which has kept the possible activity depressed.
The LibDems have sat in Holyrood with Labour for 4 years, with no inspirational, no inovational and definitely no radical political or idealistic thoughts. Here is a chance for the SCOTTISH LibDems to stand up and become a true force and be counted, and stand apart from Mings London instructions. Here is chance being squandered for their last 4 years of sharing with Labour to share their misgivings with Alex Salmond and help Scotland go onto a new plane.
Election events in France where Socialists are now out and right wing is in. SNP is a mix not a right wing not a left wing, but looking to advance Scotland, with a FREE referendum, with no limit on options for the people to decide.
The freedom to decide at the voter level appears to be sought to be denied by the LibDems. What do they stand for? They signed up for the options in 1990's, they have taken part in the assembly since, so why are you not prepared to allow "We the People" a free selection in 3 years time. They say a week is a long time in politics.

Remember "Arbeit Mach Frei" (Work shall make you free) ? - It was written above the entry to most concentrations camps. Keep the population frightened, ignorant, and desperate and keep hammering the BIG LIE. Yet Scotand's population, despite the BIG Lie of our generation, voted for the SNP, and the SNP won. Therein lies unionist fears - truth is a terrible foe. It makes people angry and powerful. The Lib/Dems should get out from under the jackboot, help the referendum process then come what may. It will take guts. We all have to get rid of the terrible grip of Labour's BIG LIE - including McConnell and Stephen. London "Labour" and Unionist Party is the enemy -they don't care about your future or our children's future, nor what Labour once saw itself , those days have gone. They have become what Labour in the 1930s saw as vile. It is a new ruling Class of those who have the define right to rule as they see fit. Labour in Scotland still has a chance to dig itself out of smell, but at the moment I can't see it.

Remember "Arbeit Mach Frei" (Work shall make you free) ? - It was written above the entry to most concentrations camps. Keep the population frightened, ignorant, and desperate and keep hammering the BIG LIE. Yet Scotand's population, despite the BIG Lie of our generation, voted for the SNP, and the SNP won.

Therein lies unionist fears - truth is a terrible foe. It makes people angry and powerful.

The Lib/Dems should get out from under the jackboot, help the referendum process then come what may. It will take guts. We all have to get rid of the terrible grip of Labour's BIG LIE - including McConnell and Stephen.

London "Labour" and Unionist Party is the enemy -they don't care about your future or our children's future, nor what Labour once saw itself , those days have gone. They have become what Labour in the 1930s saw as vile. It is a new ruling Class of those who have the define right to rule as they see fit.

Labour in Scotland still has a chance to dig itself out of smell, but at the moment I can't see it.

Surely Stephen if the majority of people in Scotland anted a referendum on independence hey would hav voted for the SNP last week? As you suggest, the way ahead has to be compromise. Most contributors will not agree but it must be said that the Labour Party set he tone for coalition government 8 years ago, when it was in a far stronger position to go it alone than the SNP is now. Those with a hatred of all things Labour will give no credit for that and suggest it was done for the worst of reasons but in reality it delivered stable government. That is the duty which now falls to Mr Salmond. He has to acept that the great majority of Scots do not share the SNP's impatience to leave the Union but see advantages, where it make sense, in extending devolved powers. You could not change the constitution of a bowling club unless two thirds of members supported the change so how on earth does the SNP begin to believe that it is anywhere near having a mandate to initiate he biggest constitutional change in the UK for 300 years? No, the way ahead is to provide good governance for Scotland today and that means compromise and patience.

Please sign this petition on the Scotish Vote Scandal. Do more than this - forward detals to others, as many as you can. Dont let the politicians sweep this under the carpet as part of a deal. One tenth of us have been cheated of our right to vote

http://www.ipetitions.com/petition/ScottishVoteScandal2007/

How depressing McShimmy. The people of Scotland - by far the most of them - did not vote for the SNP and, would you believe it, they were not tricked into not doing so by the "lies" of their opponents. It is this kind of extremist language from SNP supporters which gives most Scots grave concerns over where the SNP would take us. Why are the opposing views of other parties described in such intolerant terms? I would be very careful about turning around references to the Nazi era an using them to attack, in utterly hysterical terms, people in other parties who you describe as enemies who do not care about our future. Others might equally recall a German who gained the levers of power without winning anything like a majority and who then proceeded, through the cultivation of old grievances to obtain total power.

Although I am not pro or anti independanceI cannot understand the stance that the Lib-Dems have taken.,after all it is a referendum, which will give the people of Scotland to choose or not the path they wish to go.What right have the LDs to dictate and force their views on the general public.[

[quote][bold]Bob Linklater[/bold] wrote: Pro-union parties won dramatically more seats under this absurd PR system. A system that was proposed by the SNP and the LibDems. The people of Scotland have spoken. End ths farce of talking about independence and get on with trying to build a better Scotland. Salmond may feel elated at winning more seats but without a coalition partner he's FUBARed. Labour only lost 4 seats - and with a poor leader in Citizen Jack, Iraq and Blair frankly the SNP are **** in the wind if they think that independence is roond the corner.[/quote] Hurray for Bob ! Someone with a bit of insight !

Bob Linklater wrote:
Pro-union parties won dramatically more seats under this absurd PR system. A system that was proposed by the SNP and the LibDems.

The people of Scotland have spoken. End ths farce of talking about independence and get on with trying to build a better Scotland.

Salmond may feel elated at winning more seats but without a coalition partner he's FUBARed.

Labour only lost 4 seats - and with a poor leader in Citizen Jack, Iraq and Blair frankly the SNP are **** in the wind if they think that independence is roond the corner.

Hurray for Bob !

Someone with a bit of insight !

[quote][bold]Nige from France[/bold] wrote: [bold]Although I am not pro or anti independanceI cannot understand the stance that the Lib-Dems have taken.,after all it is a referendum, which will give the people of Scotland to choose or not the path they wish to go.What right have the LDs to dictate and force their views on the general public.[[/bold] [/quote] Nige you need to understand that what Mr Salmond wants is to carefully manage the timing and circumstances of a referendum for which there is no apparent need - if most Scots wanted independence hey could have voted for the SNP last week but they did not. Rather Mr Salmond's plans are not to give Scotland good governance over the next 4 years within devolved powers but to use the levers of office to create as much tension as possible between Scoland and the UK Government in the hope that there will be a sufficient groundswell of resentment to persuade the Scottish people that independence is the answer. What Mr Salmond evidently does not wan is to get on with the hard business of using the limited licence to govern - through compromise - given to his party by an electorate not brain washed by a press asking reaonable questions over the risks of major constiutional change but which has the same questions and is far fom being convinced that Scotland would necessarily be better off through in