Grasping The Thistle (from The Herald Election Site)

Alex Salmond yesterday staked his claim to become Scotland's next First Minister as the SNP became the largest party at Holyrood.

The historic achievement, which ended 50 years of Labour dominance in Scotland, was achieved by a margin of only one MSP. It left the future of Scottish government on a knife-edge, and Mr Salmond with the initiative.

However, neither the SNP nor Labour can rely on any single other coalition partner to reach the 65 votes needed for a majority administration after results knocked back the smaller parties in a day of tense waits and upsets.

Just before the much-delayed counting process was finally completed, leaving the SNP with 47 seats to Labour's 46, Mr Salmond declared: "Scotland has changed for good and for ever. There may well be Labour governments and Labour First Ministers in the decades to come, but never again will we see the Labour Party assume that it has a divine right to rule Scotland."

The Scottish Labour leadership of Jack McConnell is now in doubt, but having lost only four seats, there is still a chance he will remain as First Minister. Mr McConnell said yesterday he would "keep all options open" and that he would not rush into hasty coalition decisions.

He said: "I have not spent the last five-and-a-half years of my life as First Minister building up Scotland and improving this country to make a snap decision this weekend about the future of our country. It is right and proper this weekend that I and my party reflect on how best to take forward our priorities in government and the parliament again."

As well as the single-seat advantage, the SNP beat Labour in share of the vote on both constituency and list ballots: around 33 to 32% and 31 to 29%, although that represented a difference of only about 16,000 on the constituency vote. The total turnout was estimated at 51.8%, ahead of 2003.

Mr Salmond insisted the electorate had opted for change, and that Labour now had "no moral authority left to govern Scotland", adding: "Scotland has chosen a new political path This is a historic moment - a 50-year storm.

"We will lead with humility but also with passion. We will lead with verve and imagination but also always mindful that we serve the people - all of the people of this ancient and proud nation."

The Holyrood result was part of a pattern of Labour setbacks across England and Wales, posing particular problems for Gordon Brown, as the likely next Prime Minister, in trying to handle a Salmond administration at Holyrood.

It was accompanied by radical changes to the political complexion of Scotland's local authorities, with Labour retaining an overall majority in Glasgow council but falling short of that in former strongholds, including South Lanarkshire.

Yet the results were partly overshadowed by the counting chaos, caused mainly by changes to ballot papers and the voting system. Computer problems involving the new electronic scanning machines led to final results being delayed until nearly 6pm yesterday.

That followed an estimated 100,000 ballot papers being rejected by returning officers for being unclear or blank, in some constituencies representing a bigger number of voters than the majority. The Electoral Commission yesterday promised an urgent inquiry, and Mr Salmond said it should be a judicial investigation.

Mr McConnell said: "It is clear that the arrangements for the conduct of the election were unsatisfactory."

"I want to say on behalf of my party that lessons need to be learnt, lessons will be learnt, but today might not be the day to allocate blame. If action is required, action will be taken."

Annabel Goldie, the leader of the Scottish Conservatives, said the voting problems had been "a catalogue of disasters".

She said: "As we predicted, the number of spoiled ballot papers has increased. Responsibility for this sorry mess lies fairly and squarely with the Lib-Lab pact."

Nicol Stephen, the LibDem leader, said: "I always knew that there could be issues with the electronic counting system on this, its first ever use, but I never expected the problems to be on this sort of scale."

Plans to introduce electronic counting in Northern Ireland Assembly elections have now been shelved as a result of the fiasco.

Douglas Bain, the province's chief electoral officer, was in Glasgow to observe how the system worked. He said yesterday: "There have been a number of problems, of which the problems with e-counting have been one.

"I'm not going to do anything which takes any risk with the democratic process in Northern Ireland. The people of Northern Ireland are confident in the current arrangement and whatever the reality, they now have the perception that e-counting doesn't work."

As the dust finally settled last night, the SNP's tally of seats had risen by 20 to 47 MSPs, out of a total 129. Labour was down four to 46. Tories and LibDems were both down by one seat each, to 17 and 16.

The Socialist parties were wiped out and the independent voices such as the health campaigner Jean Turner silenced. Indeed smaller parties secured only three seats; two for Greens and Independent Margo MacDonald in Lothian.

Two ministers lost out to the SNP as seats changed hands; Labour's Deputy Enterprise Minister Allan Wilson in Cunninghame North, and LibDem Deputy Finance Minister George Lyon was defeated in Argyll and Bute.

The SNP strategy of winning 20 constituencies did not work as planned, with the party failing to win marginal seats it had needed, including Aberdeen Central, Cumbernauld and Kilsyth and Tweeddale, Ettrick and Lauderdale. However, Mr Salmond and his deputy, Nicola Sturgeon, both gained seats, in Gordon and Glasgow Govan, while the SNP won some seats unexpectedly, including Stirling and Edinburgh East and Musselburgh.

Yesterday, the SNP staged a presidential-style statement by Mr Salmond before the final result was clear, seeking to build momentum while Labour and LibDems stalled for time. Their MSP groups meet today to discuss options.

Hurray, chuffed with that. well done snp and alex salmond for standing up to scaremongering and negativity. Up yours the sun and the record.

I'm pleased that the Tories have held up, they seem to be doing well in the Borders and are still strong in Perthshire with three list seats and a substantial const. vote. Before the SNP brigade get too ecstatic, remember there are a lot of forward thinking Scottish voters (forget the knuckle draggers!) who want a centre right presence in Scottish politics for a bit of balance.

Today is an historic day for Scotland. It just goes to show that the people of Scotland will not suffer 3rd rate mediocrity. You are the weakest link Jack...Goodbye. Now for a new government to show us that they can do better. Best of luck Alex.

Come forward the Independence Tories.

"It is right and proper this weekend that I and my party reflect on how best to take forward our priorities in government and the parliament again."

You will have more than just the weekend to reflect if the Greens and Lib-Dems agree to a coalition, Mr McDonald.

Well done SNP.

Scotland is domestic policies are not set in London, for all intents and purposes, for the first time in 300 years.

We no longer have a government in favour of Weapons of Mass Destruction on the Clyde.

We no longer have a government in favour of sending our troops to fight for oil in Iraq.

We no longer have a government full of supporters of war criminals.

Labour's divine right to rule in Scotland has finally been put in its place. The arrogance of Labour politicians has been nothing short of disgraceful. Hence the negative campaign.

A coalition of Greens, Lib Dems and SNP will be a marked improvement on the Westminster controlled Labour party / Lib Dem coalition.

Now to push for full independence - the main difference will be control of foreign policy, which sounds like a good idea!

IT`S THE SUN WOT WUNNIT

paul h wrote:
IT`S THE SUN WOT WUNNIT

Say What?
Never mind I don't want your reply...we are dancing in the streets here
Hail Caledonia!!!!
Oh and the S. N. P. Of Course!!!!!!!

paul h wrote:
IT`S THE SUN WOT WUNNIT

Looking forward to new legislation against such tripe.

40 long years I've waited. What a superb night. Congratulations Kenny,Angela,Fiona,Ian and Stef. Build from this and free our country

If they want to have an inquiery , can they look at the role of a FREE PRESS in a democratic society. What happened to balance, truth, integrity and all those other cliches which so called journalists used to use to convince us of their worth. We cant believe a word they say any more.most of the election day coverage was the worst we have ever seen. It made the suns treatment of Michael Foot look fair and reasonable. The totally bogus totalling up of jobs that will be lost/ govt. departments that will be shut was a disgrace. Why not just say the NHS in Scotland will close and all pensions and child benefit will stop tomorrow. If we want to call ousselves a democracy we must do what it takes to ensure our press is not allowed to dictate who can and cannot run any country

I think that I will now return home, after an exile in Nouvelle Ecosse as we are finally on the road to our own independance - the only real question left ........should it be Zoom or Air Canada?

A significant number of people overcame the disgusting diatribes of the Labour party and the scum press - the Sun and the Record, in particular - to return a winning party. Well done the campaign team for the SNP and will Brown's croney, Douglas Alexander, whose entire tactic was to 'engender fear' slink off now and leave Jack to face the music, or will he have the guts to take responsibility for losing Scotland to the Labour party?

We have no real free press in Scotland, that was made abundantly clear in this election. It is the function of the press to inform, not to try and influence. However in our PC society, many journalists see their role as to "save society from itself" thinking that only they know the "inner secrets" and the "truth" because they are the ones who interview people in the public eye.

History will see this SNP victory as "against the odds". All the opposition parties, central government, businesses and people with vested interests all came against them, but still they won.

Well done the SNP, well done ALL the people of Scotland who voted. To all those who had a vote and but couldn't be bothered to vote - you are a disgrace.

Great to See Jack get his P45. it will be great to see the cosy relationship public sector employees have with the Labour party broken up and perhaps we'll see some work and added value from them - the Police will be looking forward to the SNP promised public enquiry into the McKie miscarriage and the Crown Office must be betting on the number of charges their staff will face for perverting the course of juctice which they thought they would have got away with under Labour. It will be great to see people with real experience and qualifications in the Executive not the undereducated clerks, ex union officials, social workers, failed teachers, art students that made up the Labour front bench that were Kerr, WIlson, Jamieson, McConnell and that lightweight Brown lackey Douglas Alexander

I always voted Labour but they are not the same party. I am glad the people of Scotland put them in their arrogant place. Put the people first Alex and we will not forget you when the referendum comes along. As for the Daily Record and the so called Scottish Sun, I call on every fair minded scot to stop buying them. Let them feel it where it hurts. Better still, if you run out of toilet roll...........

I'm so ecstatic. I just don't know what to say. I'm going around with this awful smug smile on my face. My wife says I look lie Alex Salmond. Oh, magnificent. BUT - there's a problem which might wipe the smile off my face. THE LIB-DEM POISONERS!!!! Only came 4th, you know, but they'll be plotting even now to divest us of democracy. Wee nichol and his slimy mob may even now be sooking up to old Joke. May i suggest that Alex and friends be ever vigilant. The Lib-Dems and their weasly words about holding democracy so dear to themselves are the ones who just might take democracy away by siding with failed maths teacher and his coterie.
BTW, where's AM and his numptie crew? Can't stand the heat, I suppose. HAH HAH HAH to them. WELL DONE SCOTLAND - YOU SAW THROUGH THE LIES!

I hate the 'sun' and the 'daily retard' with every fibre of my being.

Oh happy day, when the last labour supporter is battered to death with the last copy of the daily record.

Im not an SNP supporter but this sounds good. We agree with you on local income taxes, votes at 16, more powers and alot more. Hope we keep Labour out folks.

I'm just back from the pub where I had a small glass of wine to celebrate the health of my new MSP. I hope that my fellow posters will allow me that little indulgence. I took down my "SNP It's time" window poster as my neighbours were taking down theirs. It was a long night. For these last few weeks I felt we could do it here in Gordon. At times I had my doubts. The Libdems put up a tough fight here. I know they had a lot to lose and I feel compassion for Nora, my former MSP. But it had to be done. We had to make that extra effort to get Salmond in. We would have looked like numpties otherwise. The world's media was watching us. I have always lived in this constituency. When I was at school, The Gordon Schools I was converted to being an SNP supporter. And as I grew older all the seats round about became SNP, but we were always represented by the Liberals here. Why were we never like our neighbours? Moray & Nairn, Banff, East Aberdeenshire. One day it might happen. I did all I could to get Salmond elected here. And yesterday, I felt that history was made. I felt that I had the power to change things. Enough of my fellow Gordon dwellers felt the same. We had to do it for our fellow Scots. It was a great privelege to find the hand of history on our shoulders. And now it has come about that my MSP is Alex Salmond. The road to freedom has been long and hard. Now I feel our journey's end is in our sights.

I'm just back from the pub where I had a small glass of wine to celebrate the health of my new MSP. I hope that my fellow posters will allow me that little indulgence. I took down my "SNP It's time" window poster as my neighbours were taking down theirs. It was a long night. For these last few weeks I felt we could do it here in Gordon. At times I had my doubts. The Libdems put up a tough fight here. I know they had a lot to lose and I feel compassion for Nora, my former MSP. But it had to be done. We had to make that extra effort to get Salmond in. We would have looked like numpties otherwise. The world's media was watching us. I have always lived in this constituency. When I was at school, The Gordon Schools I was converted to being an SNP supporter.
And as I grew older all the seats round about became SNP, but we were always represented by the Liberals here. Why were we never like our neighbours? Moray & Nairn, Banff, East Aberdeenshire. One day it might happen. I did all I could to get Salmond elected here. And yesterday, I felt that history was made. I felt that I had the power to change things. Enough of my fellow Gordon dwellers felt the same. We had to do it for our fellow Scots. It was a great privelege to find the hand of history on our shoulders. And now it has come about that my MSP is Alex Salmond. The road to freedom has been long and hard. Now I feel our journey's end is in our sights.

Well done Scotland - not the majority it should have been but its a move in the right direction. Good on you Alex - at last a leader with intelligence who will put Scotland and the Scots first not like lackey Jack. And all this despite a nasty campaign by pro Labour media types and McBLiar/McBroon attempts to quell the tartan savages. As for the single Tory supporter on the campaign trial above - clearly there were a lot of forward thinking Scottish voters which is why the SNP did so well.

Let's hope that this momentous win for the S.N.P. and Alex Salmond does indeed signal the " winds of change in Scottish politics", and I agree with Rab about the Scottish print media. Surely the Daily Racist and the Sun have to re-examine their recruitment criteria for journalists. I of course use the word 'journalist' in the weakest sense!

Let's hope that our fellow Scots can become more positive about their own abilities and become more engaged with the democratic process.

Fantastic! Great result for the SNP! Onwards and upwards for Scotland.

Over here in Canada I had to watch from afar, done ma wee bit though, sent a few bob to our upright Scots.

How do I feel? Righteous!

Wish I was hame!

Well done Scotland.!!!! Well done SNP!!!!. A truly world class campaign and leadership by incoming First Minister Alex Salmond. Professional and pitch perfect. and showcased what Scotland can really do. Up and down the east coast, we expats enjoyed every minute watching the YouTube, blogs and exciting reporting from the Herald. (No one over here reads the other papers, they're just rubbish....tho we did enjoy inundating the SUN with email complaints`in the last few days).
None of us can wait to see the new Scottish Government get into power. This is beyond politics. The Scottish Government led by Alex Salmond means a better future for Scotland as we work to invest in a Scotland we can believe in.
So for all of us who were heartbroken at what 50 years of London Labour has done to Scotland, this is a reason to come home. With our businesses and our networks to put to use for a real Scotland.
Thank you Scotland and all you voters who voted to join the world.

I have never felt so proud. Well done the SNP. It might be time to return home and join the push for a free Scotland.

I was one of the TENS of thousands who lost out on my postal vote - the first time i have missed voting - and i am incandescent about this latest SCOTTISH NATIONAL DISGRACE that was our supposed election. But there is about as much chance of our newly elected self-serving politicos demanding a re-run to this debacle as there is in Alex Salmond wiping that permanent smug grin off his chubby face.

The politicos who were pipped by a few hundred votes, where the "spoilt" ballot papers outnumbered the overall "majority", should be taking IMMEDIATE legal action.

Let's hope "King Alex" and his Court Jesters (Kenny "The fact of the matter is... " / "Man of Justice" MacAskill; "The Wee Nippy Sweety"; and the rest of the inner-circle) are forced into a minority rule and we somehow, in the next few weeks / months, get a complete re-run of OUR DEMOCRATIC (fare, proper and JUST) SCOTTISH PARLIAMENTARY / COUNCIL ELECTIONS ... though, of course, we won't hold our collective breath.

Q: What do you call a 129 MSPs (and ALL self-serving Scottish / UK politicos generally) at the bottom of the North Sea?

A: A b****y good start!

to J Alan in Edinburgh....Er, you DO know that labour was behind the voting fiasco, right? I mean, that's our point, you have had an incompetent labour party in charge of these things, amateur night. I liked the earlier post: Jack , you are the weakest link. Goodbye.
With Salmond and SNP you will actually achieve a democracy We were sort of hoping you all noticed and we thank all those voters who voted for Scotland and the snp.

Congratulations to the SNP from Australia. In a recent trip back home, I was astounded by the blatant negativity and personal attacks on Mr Salmond from the Scottish Labour Party.
Here in Australia we have been in the grips of far right politcal domination for a decade. And it is causing poor policy outcomes in areas such as health, education, employment and housing. It is great to see the Scottish people rejecting this type of dog eat dog economic model.

Callin' out around the world
Are you ready for a brand new beat
S. N. P. is in and the time is right
For danching in the street
They're dancing in Chicago
Down in New Orleans
Up in New York City
Dancing in the streets
All we needed was that win now the future is so sweet
We're swingin' and swayin' and records playing and we're
dancing in the street
It's an invitation across the nation
A chance for folks to meet
C'mon you all let's swing those hips c'mon and join the beat
'cause we are dancing in the streets!

Once Again Well Done SNP Voters

Now the work really begins. Onward and upward

Well done all the voters and SNP. Finally Scotland is taking pride in herself. Why did it take so long. We have to believe in ourselves. We are a brilliant nation loved throughout the world. Now we can work towards showing the world exactly what we can do. Scots wha hae!

[bold]"A VOTE FOR SCOTTISH INDEPENDENCE, IS NOT NECESSARILY ACCEDABLE-TO BY THE REST OF THE UK"[/bold] While it is true that voters in Scotland have every right to "vote for independence", it is another matter whether such a vote would be legally enforceable, and/or accede-able-to by the rest of the United Kingdom, considering the hugely different world of today as compared with 1707 (when the Act of Union- joining Scotland into the UK- came into force)... and considering how the United Kingdom-> as a cohesive-nation-state-> is extensively interconnected both internally and to the outside world/its nations + its/their many varied & complex structures. The leading, exceedingly broad international role the UK plays- as a unit- in the 21st century, participating as an integral part of, & regularly positively influencing the world's most powerful political, economic, legal, development/aid & military structures, could not have been foreseen 300 years ago. Given the immense interconnectedness & comprehensive interdependence of the UK's component parts (Scotland, England, Wales & N Ireland) with each other & at levels and in ways unimaginable 300 years ago- when the primary legislation underpinning the nation was enacted-> [bold]it could be viewed by a competent court that arbitrarily declared "independence" of one part of the UK, say Scotland, would be illegal, & could not occur without the reasonable interests/needs of the other parts of the Nation taking priority.[/bold] Similarly, if unilateral "independence" of one part of the UK, say Scotland, could reasonably be deemed by an objective body- such as a high court- to result in significant damages, immediate or in the future, to other parts of the Nation, such declarations of independence, could be subject to limits, and restrictive-conditions, as put into a needed WRITTEN UK national-constitution. [bold]"WRITTEN" UK CONSTITUTION NEEDED??[/bold] The UK's recent decentralization/devolution programme (which has led to talk of Scottish independence) would have made much more sense (if done at all!!) & been far less destructive if the UK�s central govt functions went to (perhaps 10 or 11 of) the country's most well defined economic-regions, with (where necessary) these economic-regions' borders "adjusted" & made to cross the non-working geopolitical borders between England, Scotland, Wales & N. Ireland. Laying blame for what is clearly a bungled programme would, arguably, be counterproductive.... But, the facts relating to this dangerously poorly thought out, and highly contradictory programme ought to be faced head on & deliberated widely & openly, rather than wait for a future referendum on independence in Wales, N Ireland or Scotland. How? with a several-month-long [bold]"UK national dialogue" leading to a written constitution...[/bold] a constitution that defined explicitly not only the rights of ALL UK residents & the obligations & duties of various levels of government, but also outlined the UK's political structures & what limits, if any, there are to any of the UK's component parts from declaring unilateral "independence". Ideally, the outcome of such a "UK national dialogue" would politically bring closer together, & strengthen the bonds between the nation's component parts, at least in terms of the rights, quality/type and levels of publicly funded services, taxation, etc that citizens/residents in these areas receive and can expect. Roderick V. Louis (near) Vancouver, Canada ceo@patientempowermentsociety.com

"A VOTE FOR SCOTTISH INDEPENDENCE, IS NOT NECESSARILY
ACCEDABLE-TO BY THE REST OF THE UK"

While it is true that voters in Scotland have every right to "vote for independence", it is another matter whether such a vote would be legally enforceable, and/or accede-able-to by the rest of the United Kingdom, considering the hugely different world of today as compared with 1707 (when the Act of Union- joining Scotland into the UK- came into force)... and considering how the United Kingdom-> as a cohesive-nation-state-> is extensively interconnected both internally and to the outside world/its nations + its/their many varied & complex structures.

The leading, exceedingly broad international role the UK plays- as a unit- in the 21st century, participating as an integral part of, & regularly positively influencing the world's most powerful political, economic, legal, development/aid & military structures, could not have been foreseen 300 years ago.

Given the immense interconnectedness & comprehensive interdependence of the UK's component parts (Scotland, England, Wales & N Ireland) with each other & at levels and in ways unimaginable 300 years ago- when the primary legislation underpinning the nation was enacted-> it could be viewed by a competent court that arbitrarily declared "independence" of one part of the UK, say Scotland, would be illegal, & could not occur without the reasonable interests/needs of the other parts of the Nation taking priority.

Similarly, if unilateral "independence" of one part of the UK, say Scotland, could reasonably be deemed by an objective body- such as a high court- to result in significant damages, immediate or in the future, to other parts of the Nation, such declarations of independence, could be subject to limits, and restrictive-conditions, as put into a needed WRITTEN UK national-constitution.

"WRITTEN" UK CONSTITUTION NEEDED??

The UK's recent decentralization/devolution programme (which has led to talk of Scottish independence) would have made much more sense (if done at all!!) & been far less destructive if the UK�s central govt functions went to (perhaps 10 or 11 of) the country's most well defined economic-regions, with (where necessary) these economic-regions' borders "adjusted" & made to cross the non-working geopolitical borders between England, Scotland, Wales & N. Ireland.

Laying blame for what is clearly a bungled programme would, arguably, be counterproductive....

But, the facts relating to this dangerously poorly thought out, and highly contradictory programme ought to be faced head on & deliberated widely & openly, rather than wait for a future referendum on independence in Wales, N Ireland or Scotland.

How? with a several-month-long "UK national dialogue" leading to a written constitution... a constitution that defined explicitly not only the rights of ALL UK residents & the obligations & duties of various levels of government, but also outlined the UK's political structures & what limits, if any, there are to any of the UK's component parts from declaring unilateral "independence".

Ideally, the outcome of such a "UK national dialogue" would politically bring closer together, & strengthen the bonds between the nation's component parts, at least in terms of the rights, quality/type and levels of publicly funded services, taxation, etc that citizens/residents in these areas receive and can expect.

Roderick V. Louis
(near) Vancouver, Canada
ceo@patientempowermentsociety.com

Didn't Jock McDonald and his London bent Muppets do well? "Coming from behind", as First Minister of the ruling Numpties for the last 50 years in Scotland, with the full backing of the British Media in Scotland ,they still couldn�t keep their Union Jack flying.

An amazing feat for the SNP in the circumstances. Pity the SNP did not have the required majority to deal with Labour's two faced poodles, the not so liberal Dummies. Sell nothing out to them and force them into another election, if they dare. They would soon be wiped out this time. The public would not stand for their cowardice, including the angry disenfranchised.

Put them to the test. Fortune favours the bold, not the sold.

My rampant lion flag was raised in Florida today when the sun shone on the SNP's victory for Scotland and our nations new beginings.

One small step for Alex, One great leap for Scotland. Patience is now needed as the game is played out in Edinburgh. No overall majority means a bit of chaos to begin with. But it is clear we are on our way to independence.
I have not read The Sun or The Record for decades, they are the most destructive of all the papers profiled by their masters overseas to find or create mischief so that profits are made. Truth might be buried in the sea of opinion but opinion in these papers was not a friend to the facts or the truth. From the various comments shown above and over the past few weeks it is nice to know I need not waste my pennies on their rags.
Congratulations to the SNP and to those who bothered to vote. All the rest of you who have no opinion can rest assured i will not seek to inform or solicit opinions. You have none.
Euan

As ever a millionaire funded party has won thanks to a media that ignores any party that doesn't have ESTABLISHMENT stamped on its forehead.A party that is dominated by LAWYERS. We will continue to expose and DEMAND the REMOVAL of all msp's that are trolls for the most criminal organisation in Scotland.Those who make our legislation CANNOT gain financially from its enforcement. Real democracy is having REAL choice not what is shoved in our face .Scotlands TV stations ensured any smaller parties were squeezed out of the race. Under the circumstances It was probably the best of a bad lot and ensures Heir McConnell cannot ruin Scotland any further and lawyer Sturgeon hasn't got a mandate for Drumsheugh gardens to control Scotland. Scotlands people must have a better opportunity to get rid of the biased ,prejudiced and discriminatory way our election system operates UNDER ,an UTTER SHAMBLES for anyone with the most basic of intellect.Scotlands media cannot continue to suggest we have a democracy after this debacle. NO wonder so many didn't even bother turning out to vote for a bunch of GANGSTERS . SCOTLANDS DESERVES MUCH BETTER THAN THIS . LJPR LEGAL JUDICIAL POLITICAL REFORMERS http://www.ljpr.cjb.net

As ever a millionaire funded party has won thanks to a media that ignores any party that doesn't have ESTABLISHMENT stamped on its forehead.A party that is dominated by LAWYERS.

We will continue to expose and DEMAND the REMOVAL of all msp's that are trolls for the most criminal organisation in Scotland.Those who make our legislation CANNOT gain financially from its enforcement.

Real democracy is having REAL choice not what is shoved in our face .Scotlands TV stations ensured any smaller parties were squeezed out of the race.
Under the circumstances It was probably the best of a bad lot and ensures Heir McConnell cannot ruin Scotland any further and lawyer Sturgeon hasn't got a mandate for Drumsheugh gardens to control Scotland.

Scotlands people must have a better opportunity to get rid of the biased ,prejudiced and discriminatory way our election system operates UNDER ,an UTTER SHAMBLES for anyone with the most basic of intellect.Scotlands media cannot continue to suggest we have a democracy after this debacle.

NO wonder so many didn't even bother turning out to vote for a bunch of GANGSTERS .

SCOTLANDS DESERVES MUCH BETTER THAN THIS .

LJPR LEGAL JUDICIAL POLITICAL REFORMERS
http://www.ljpr.cjb.net

The old Labour strongholds are as frightened of change as they ever were, so it is in these areas where the new Scottish National Party leadership can be magnanimous and open the doors for further suces in the future. Unable to sleep last night, I tuned in on the compter and while it is beyond midnight, Friday, my shift has just ended, and I have not slept for two and a half days, I feel refreshed, alive and absolutely delighted that enough Scots have had the courage to make May 4th 2007 a memorable day here in the good old/bad old (whatever your preference is) US of A. Congratulations to all my old SNP friends and former colleagues, it has been a long struggle, but what doesn't kill you, makes you stronger. Good Job ladies and gentlemen of Scotland. Congratulations Mr. Salmond be bold, be fair and be honest, but above all put Scotland first every time. Prove the doubters wrong, and prove finally that an independent Scotland is richer than all, except God, Luxemburg and Norway. Living as I do in the USA, I look forward to the day when our per capita rates demote my current homeland in that rich list. Develop our education, pay our workers well, and educate the old miners and trade unionists etc. with pleasant experiences beyond their wildest freams. And enact laws which keep our people and our country safe from all who threaten our peace. Personally, my next word will be a private one with the God who made us all, who knows our potential, and who gave us our astonishing assets, the best of which are the people of Scotland themselves. Lift their spirits and show them what big boys and girls can do when they are empowered. Remember the most vital reason why we have failed in the past. The nation divided against itself shall not stand - so lets get together and rid Scotland of divisive politics, replacing it with do what is RIGHT policies, rather than do what is best for me alone. [bold]bold[/bold] Proud of you guys - Good Job, the people of Scotland[bold]bold[/bold]

The old Labour strongholds are as frightened of change as they ever were, so it is in these areas where the new Scottish National Party leadership can be magnanimous and open the doors for further suces in the future.

Unable to sleep last night, I tuned in on the compter and while it is beyond midnight, Friday, my shift has just ended, and I have not slept for two and a half days, I feel refreshed, alive and absolutely delighted that enough Scots have had the courage to make May 4th 2007 a memorable day here in the good old/bad old (whatever your preference is) US of A.

Congratulations to all my old SNP friends and former colleagues, it has been a long struggle, but what doesn't kill you, makes you stronger. Good Job ladies and gentlemen of Scotland.

Congratulations Mr. Salmond be bold, be fair and be honest, but above all put Scotland first every time. Prove the doubters wrong, and prove finally that an independent Scotland is richer than all, except God, Luxemburg and Norway. Living as I do in the USA, I look forward to the day when our per capita rates demote my current homeland in that rich list.

Develop our education, pay our workers well, and educate the old miners and trade unionists etc. with pleasant experiences beyond their wildest freams. And enact laws which keep our people and our country safe from all who threaten our peace.

Personally, my next word will be a private one with the God who made us all, who knows our potential, and who gave us our astonishing assets, the best of which are the people of Scotland themselves. Lift their spirits and show them what big boys and girls can do when they are empowered.

Remember the most vital reason why we have failed in the past.

The nation divided against itself shall not stand - so lets get together and rid Scotland of divisive politics, replacing it with do what is RIGHT policies, rather than do what is best for me alone.

Proud of you guys - Good Job, the people of Scotland

The venom ,vitriol and hatred spewed out by the Scottish tabloid press had the effect of keeping many Labour voters at home ,rather than voteing SNPHere is Argyll the Lib Dems payed an awesome price for their stand against democracy.It is a price they really deserved to pay.

Well done to the SNP for overcoming the unionist slander machine. Get in there.

The hard work starts now.

This is the beginning of the end of the union as we know it, it is tight but the initiative is with the nationalists who have gained a SPECTACULAR if narrow win up yours alex ferguson,alex macleish,robbie coltrane etc and the rest of the unionist slanderers independence is on the agenda and alex salmond will push it along with the reforms scotland needs..........as for that arrogant b*****d gordon brown bet hes happy hahahahahaha

Was Salmond in London for so long joining the funny hand shake club before they gave him the money to win over Scotland?

LJPR LEGAL JUDICIAL POLITICAL REFORMERS
http://www.ljpr.cjb.net

Goood morning Scotland.

Here's the new national anthem.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=ZAVwukJ7xLM

There is much celebration by Scots throughout the world today as this result has came through. It was a magnificent achievement considering that the SNP were up against the propeganda of the whole of the British press. This was a refreshing result for democracy, morning has broken to a new day in this friendly wee country of ours. Lets get it right !

When is Scotland going to get a party that is not at the exclusive beck and call of the rich who bankroll them into power?

SCOTLAND NEEDS TO WAKEN UP TO THE FACT THAT NO MATTER WHICH ESTABLISHMENT SANCTIONED PARTY GETS INTO POWER NOTHING WILL CHANGE UNTIL "WE" SCOTLANDS PEOPLE FORCE CHANGE ONTO THE MOBSTERS WHO WILL CONTINUE TO DOMINATE AND CONTROL SCOTLANDS WEALTH AND INEQUALITY WILL REMAIN DEEPLY IMBEDDED IN OUR NATION.

LJPR LEGAL JUDICIAL POLITICAL REFORMERS
http://www.ljpr.cjb.net

There are other casualties. Whither Brand Sheridan and his fellow chauvinist, Mr John DirtyBook Aberdein of Orkney and Montmarte? Whither Mr Steve Arnott of that unlikely grouping, Socialists for Vivisection ? Perhaps they'll find a people's fortune writing for the wretched rags which have so disfigured this election - ie all of them; our thoughts must be with these warriors as they continue to battle for our freedoms; with any luck they will do this from penury and anonymity, perhaps even from Barlinnie. Mr Salmond might indicate, as a gesture of renewal, that MSPs are elected and paid to work full-time. Tory lawyers popping into the legislature when nothing more lucrative beckons in Court are no worse than mouthy celebrity socialists giving themselves paid leave of absence to pursue a legal battle of their own instigation; a nurse couldn't act like this, or a firefighter, they wouid be sacked . There was nothing in the deeply unpleasant McCletchie's manifesto about him working in the courts or taxi-ing himself about at my expense; nothing in tearful Tommy's vulgar, bombastic proclamations about taking three months off, trying to repair his marriage in front of the TV cameras. Mr Salmond should put a stop to MSPs larging it like this, contemptuously. The LibLab pactors distinguished themselves in so many ways that it is difficult to single-out one specific achievement. Kirsty Wark House at half a billion pounds, ten times the cost of the Welsh Assembly building, is pretty outstanding. Care homes all over Scotland are in meltdown for want of a few grand, fiver-an-hour arse wipers busting their backs, demoralised and undervalued. They must take comfort from the fact that the catastrophically incompetent Lord/Sir/Mr. David Steel, failed LibDem leader, has built himself a fitting monument with our money. Go back to your constituencies and prepare for sinecures. Arsehole. Three quarters of a million pounds of hush money paid to Officer McKie, for her HURT FEELINGS, didn't even have the desired effect of shutting her up. Jim Wallace QC MSP and Lady Jamieson, "Justice" ministers in charge have not offered one word of apology. The cross-dressing imbecile McConnell has refused an enquiry into events which have made Scottish jurisprudence (not to mention himself) a global laughing stock. McConnell should be impeached for perverting the course of justice. The Lord Advocate, Carpenter, jumped-up mouthy, Blairite gabshite has fled the country. Mr Salmond should seek his extradition; he could share a cell with Mr Sheridan. Mr Sticky Fingers McLeish has re-emerged, sharing with us his wisdom on electoral matters, comforted no doubt by the thirty-five grand a year for life pension we gladly and gratefully pay him for his own unique contribution to the body politic, Funny how politicos are allowed to retire on a fortune when anybody else would go to jail. Disgraced commentators, from Lardman Taylor to He-man Bell.have fed us pap that Holyrood has taken time to bed down, that the people have a growing pride in their parliament ( and, presumably, by association, in those tuppenny hustlers who report on it We have seen the nobility, the impartiality of the Scottish press in the past few weeks; only the perpetually bemused Gordon Brewer showing any signs of even-handedness) The Scottish Parliament owes us much. Reinvigourated by a presently untarnished nationalist party, emboldened by a rebellion against the thieves and traitors of NewLabour and their chums in the press the coming session should involve the urgent shining of light into some dark corners. Mr Salmond's supporters have done well and are right to rejoice. There is particular pleasure to be found in contemplating the displeasure caused to the anxious, grubby, Calvinist dictator in number 11 Downing Street as he contemplates his "succession;" in the bitter hatreds which will explode among NewLabour UK plc, rivalry and opinion will cast their wild spell; we must hope that when they lie down their sleep is fractured by dead Iraqi children coming through the walls, screaming; by the unforgiving gaze of Tommy Atkins' bereaved mother and wife; by those condemned to torture, courtesy T Blair and J McConnell, in Uncle Sam's gulags. We have done well to oust at least some of the tyrants, the bullies, the torturers. We must hope that Mr Salmond , in pursuit of a second and third term, does not, as generally happens, let politics over-ride decency and humanity. Stick it to 'em.

There are other casualties. Whither Brand Sheridan and his fellow chauvinist, Mr John DirtyBook Aberdein of Orkney and Montmarte? Whither Mr Steve Arnott of that unlikely grouping, Socialists for Vivisection ? Perhaps they'll find a people's fortune writing for the wretched rags which have so disfigured this election - ie all of them; our thoughts must be with these warriors as they continue to battle for our freedoms; with any luck they will do this from penury and anonymity, perhaps even from Barlinnie.

Mr Salmond might indicate, as a gesture of renewal, that MSPs are elected and paid to work full-time. Tory lawyers popping into the legislature when nothing more lucrative beckons in Court are no worse than mouthy celebrity socialists giving themselves paid leave of absence to pursue a legal battle of their own instigation; a nurse couldn't act like this, or a firefighter, they wouid be sacked . There was nothing in the deeply unpleasant McCletchie's manifesto about him working in the courts or taxi-ing himself about at my expense; nothing in tearful Tommy's vulgar, bombastic proclamations about taking three months off, trying to repair his marriage in front of the TV cameras. Mr Salmond should put a stop to MSPs larging it like this, contemptuously.

The LibLab pactors distinguished themselves in so many ways that it is difficult to single-out one specific achievement. Kirsty Wark House at half a billion pounds, ten times the cost of the Welsh Assembly building, is pretty outstanding. Care homes all over Scotland are in meltdown for want of a few grand, fiver-an-hour arse wipers busting their backs, demoralised and undervalued. They must take comfort from the fact that the catastrophically incompetent Lord/Sir/Mr. David Steel, failed LibDem leader, has built himself a fitting monument with our money. Go back to your constituencies and prepare for sinecures. Arsehole.

Three quarters of a million pounds of hush money paid to Officer McKie, for her HURT FEELINGS, didn't even have the desired effect of shutting her up. Jim Wallace QC MSP and Lady Jamieson, "Justice" ministers in charge have not offered one word of apology. The cross-dressing imbecile McConnell has refused an enquiry into events which have made Scottish jurisprudence (not to mention himself) a global laughing stock. McConnell should be impeached for perverting the course of justice. The Lord Advocate, Carpenter, jumped-up mouthy, Blairite gabshite has fled the country. Mr Salmond should seek his extradition; he could share a cell with Mr Sheridan.

Mr Sticky Fingers McLeish has re-emerged, sharing with us his wisdom on electoral matters, comforted no doubt by the thirty-five grand a year for life pension we gladly and gratefully pay him for his own unique contribution to the body politic, Funny how politicos are allowed to retire on a fortune when anybody else would go to jail.

Disgraced commentators, from Lardman Taylor to He-man Bell.have fed us pap that Holyrood has taken time to bed down, that the people have a growing pride in their parliament ( and, presumably, by association, in those tuppenny hustlers who report on it We have seen the nobility, the impartiality of the Scottish press in the past few weeks; only the perpetually bemused Gordon Brewer showing any signs of even-handedness) The Scottish Parliament owes us much. Reinvigourated by a presently untarnished nationalist party, emboldened by a rebellion against the thieves and traitors of NewLabour and their chums in the press the coming session should involve the urgent shining of light into some dark corners.

Mr Salmond's supporters have done well and are right to rejoice. There is particular pleasure to be found in contemplating the displeasure caused to the anxious, grubby, Calvinist dictator in number 11 Downing Street as he contemplates his "succession;" in the bitter hatreds which will explode among NewLabour UK plc, rivalry and opinion will cast their wild spell; we must hope that when they lie down their sleep is fractured by dead Iraqi children coming through the walls, screaming; by the unforgiving gaze of Tommy Atkins' bereaved mother and wife; by those condemned to torture, courtesy T Blair and J McConnell, in Uncle Sam's gulags. We have done well to oust at least some of the tyrants, the bullies, the torturers. We must hope that Mr Salmond , in pursuit of a second and third term, does not, as generally happens, let politics over-ride decency and humanity. Stick it to 'em.

LPJR . When are you going to give yourself a breaK? This constant stress and shouting can't be good for the soul. Take a moment and listen to Nina.

Blair crowed yesterday that it was so bad for Labour as they turned a 10% poll deficit to 2% in the last days of their campaign in Scotland. What he did not say was that this was achieved by a massive attack of by biased media against ordinary people freely arrived at views. The man is a complete scoundrel.

OK Labour can never complain again when the Media turn against them as it will when it suits their proprietor's interests. It shows how important mass media endorsement is to them. They should have been totally stuffed yesterday.

If indeed the media can effect a 5%-7% swing in the last moments of a campaign then there is now strong evidence for the claim 'its the Sun wot won it'. Maybe we should force them to print large/bold 'dishonesty' warnings on their front pages in the last day of an election.

Well done Alex and everyone that worked so hard for an SNP victory in such a scary and undemocratic environment.

Well done all, but brace yourselves - they won't just let us walk away. You thought that campaign was dirty? You ain't seen nuthin yet.

@Roderick, Vancouver

A tip when posting, Roderick: less is more. You're wearing out the PgDn button on a lot of PCs over here.

WHEN SCOTLAND WAKENS UP TO THE FACT THAT THEY HAVE BEEN DUPED ONCE AGAIN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

THE SINISTER UNELECTED SHADOW GOVERNMENT WILL CONTINUE THE DOMINATION OF INEQUALITY SCOTLANDS LONG SUFFERING CITIZENS HAVE TOLERATED FOR WAY TO LONG GIVING ONLY AN ILLUSION OF DEMOCRACY

LJPR LEGAL JUDICIAL POLITICAL REFORMERS
http://www.ljpr.cjb.net

Ok, I'll try another tact when are you going to realise that TRYING TO MAKE YOUR POINT IN FULL ON CAPS MAKES YOU LOOK LIKE A DOBBER?

Well done the people of Scotland. You saw through the lies, the scaremongering, the most vile tabloid campaign(and a couple of broadsheets). The labour party should hang heads in shame you tried every dirty trick in the book. Labour used to be a great, proud, and honest party, Look at yourselves now. you offended and digusted the scottish people. IAN...ABERDEEN

Couldn't have put it better myself Ian.

Well played the people, Alex Salmond, Angus Robertson and the thousands of SNP activists throughout Scotland. You have given us all hope for the future.

Roll on 2010. It's Time for that too!

We haven't properly thanked Tony and Gordon for their help in securing an SNP victory. While we would have done it without them, their nauseating interference in the Scottish election must have removed any remaining doubts in the minds of the undecided.

Great to see so many exiled Real Scots now thinking of coming home.

Conversely, some of our Snivelling Quislings have long promised that they would leave a free Scotland. Well, wait no longer - go now! The sooner we get rid of the dead wood, the better. The collective IQ of Scotland would shoot up immediately. Mind you, I am sorry for the countries that you would go to. Perhaps the decent people of England would stop you at Hadrian's Wall, and send you to a resettlement camp in the Malvinas or some remaining British colony.

Archie

Look Oscar if you have nothing more to say than criticise the use of caps lock to make a point dont waste your time on frivolous insults you obviously cant argue about what we are stating but pick on frivolous stuff instead.
Quite a common ploy of trolls of the establishment using forums to undermine anything that challenges the status quo.
Your the DOBBER!!!!!!!!!

LJPR LEGAL JUDICIAL POLITICAL REFORMERS
http://www.ljpr.cjb.net

It's strange to look back at John Smith and Donald Dewar,both Labour heavyweights, advocating,pushing for and implementing devolution as the settled will of the Scottish people. They recognised that the long Thatcher years had broken the union link in Scotland and we could not go through those years again.
Fast forward to the past couple of weeks and you had the astonishing sight of Labours' Brown and Blair trying to browbeat the Scottish electorate to toe the unionist party line and Brown even threatening that he would not talk to Salmond if the SNP won the vote.
It was the final proof that the real Westminster view of Holyrood was and is more of a parish council that could be seen but not heard.
They turned this into a heavyweight slugging match and enough of the people have now spoken.
There is a future mandate to press for an Independent Scotland but right now is the time to hunker down and consolidate the new bedrock.

Parochial update fae da Nort Isles:
Scotty Dyble, failed UKIP candidate in Shetland, and recently featured in a full page 'serious' article ida London Times, accompanied bi various 'divide & rule' stirrers on da blogs stood as a cooncil candidate in Shetland Central in 2007.
Result: Dyble S - nineteen votes 19. Wan nine.
Shetland is Scottish

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/politics/article1723077.ece

A cheer rang round this Irish houshold when we, all Scots, saw the final results but don't be fooled lib-lab will do a deal and rule again.Scots must realise that this is the first of many battles and the important lesson to be learned is that YOUR vote can count even if only to encourage the voters the next time. Confidence grows and victory becomes certain.

ian wrote:
Well done the people of Scotland. You saw through the lies, the scaremongering, the most vile tabloid campaign(and a couple of broadsheets). The labour party should hang heads in shame you tried every dirty trick in the book. Labour used to be a great, proud, and honest party, Look at yourselves now. you offended and digusted the scottish people.

Hear, hear Ian !!

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/news.html?in_article_id=452834&in_page_id=1770

How does Britain's richest solicitor earn �16 million per year?

Solicitors such as Jim Beresford "displayed a ruthless greed, the like of which I have never before witnessed in my 81 years,"

This is the shadow government that runs Britain the SNP are FULL of them.

LJPR LEGAL JUDICIAL POLITICAL REFORMERS
http://www.ljpr.cjb.net

Gregor Addison wrote:
A significant number of people overcame the disgusting diatribes of the Labour party and the scum press - the Sun and the Record, in particular - to return a winning party. Well done the campaign team for the SNP and will Brown's croney, Douglas Alexander, whose entire tactic was to 'engender fear' slink off now and leave Jack to face the music, or will he have the guts to take responsibility for losing Scotland to the Labour party?

Record and Sun..(Spit !!)
.................................................but let's not forget that the Hootsamn and this formerly esteeemed p[ublication were less than equitable re the debate.
The great miracle is that enough of our countrymen had the vision to see past the "This is as good as it gets" spin put out by disingenuous men in red rosettes. As for Wee Dougie...a poisonous lying wee toad of a man, who needs (a rhetorical) burning at the stake !!....................but REMEMBER..............the job just begins now...and if you think that you've seen SCARE tactics thus far,,,,,,,,,,fact is, you ain't seen nuthin' yet !!.
Be ready..FIGHT BACK !!

What a shame Glasgow let the rest of the country down by doing what it always does, allowing the real villains to get back in again. I think the most embarrassing moment was Pauline McNeil's "victory" speech. Standing there pointing at people, shouting at people and generally behaving like a common wee Glesga hairy! Margaret Curran wasn't much better. I wish Alex Salmond well, and again the dignity of the man is what shone through in recent weeks. I hope the country really is changing and that Labour dominance is truly over. In the council elections it is wonderful to see my own Local Authority in South Lanarkshire being taken from Labour because since it's inception in 1996 they have failed to serve the people here and all they have done with any consistency is sell off the green belt against the wishes of the people. I think Scotland has been brave but I wish more had shown courage. I hope Mr Salmond wins people over by proving that his administration is going to be about people. Congratulations SNP, retain your dignity and you will just keep growing.

[quote][bold]tasty macfadden[/bold] wrote: There are other casualties. Whither Brand Sheridan and his fellow chauvinist, Mr John DirtyBook Aberdein of Orkney and Montmarte? Whither Mr Steve Arnott of that unlikely grouping, Socialists for Vivisection ? Perhaps they'll find a people's fortune writing for the wretched rags which have so disfigured this election - ie all of them; our thoughts must be with these warriors as they continue to battle for our freedoms; with any luck they will do this from penury and anonymity, perhaps even from Barlinnie. Mr Salmond might indicate, as a gesture of renewal, that MSPs are elected and paid to work full-time. Tory lawyers popping into the legislature when nothing more lucrative beckons in Court are no worse than mouthy celebrity socialists giving themselves paid leave of absence to pursue a legal battle of their own instigation; a nurse couldn't act like this, or a firefighter, they wouid be sacked . There was nothing in the deeply unpleasant McCletchie's manifesto about him working in the courts or taxi-ing himself about at my expense; nothing in tearful Tommy's vulgar, bombastic proclamations about taking three months off, trying to repair his marriage in front of the TV cameras. Mr Salmond should put a stop to MSPs larging it like this, contemptuously. The LibLab pactors distinguished themselves in so many ways that it is difficult to single-out one specific achievement. Kirsty Wark House at half a billion pounds, ten times the cost of the Welsh Assembly building, is pretty outstanding. Care homes all over Scotland are in meltdown for want of a few grand, fiver-an-hour arse wipers busting their backs, demoralised and undervalued. They must take comfort from the fact that the catastrophically incompetent Lord/Sir/Mr. David Steel, failed LibDem leader, has built himself a fitting monument with our money. Go back to your constituencies and prepare for sinecures. Arsehole. Three quarters of a million pounds of hush money paid to Officer McKie, for her HURT FEELINGS, didn't even have the desired effect of shutting her up. Jim Wallace QC MSP and Lady Jamieson, "Justice" ministers in charge have not offered one word of apology. The cross-dressing imbecile McConnell has refused an enquiry into events which have made Scottish jurisprudence (not to mention himself) a global laughing stock. McConnell should be impeached for perverting the course of justice. The Lord Advocate, Carpenter, jumped-up mouthy, Blairite gabshite has fled the country. Mr Salmond should seek his extradition; he could share a cell with Mr Sheridan. Mr Sticky Fingers McLeish has re-emerged, sharing with us his wisdom on electoral matters, comforted no doubt by the thirty-five grand a year for life pension we gladly and gratefully pay him for his own unique contribution to the body politic, Funny how politicos are allowed to retire on a fortune when anybody else would go to jail. Disgraced commentators, from Lardman Taylor to He-man Bell.have fed us pap that Holyrood has taken time to bed down, that the people have a growing pride in their parliament ( and, presumably, by association, in those tuppenny hustlers who report on it We have seen the nobility, the impartiality of the Scottish press in the past few weeks; only the perpetually bemused Gordon Brewer showing any signs of even-handedness) The Scottish Parliament owes us much. Reinvigourated by a presently untarnished nationalist party, emboldened by a rebellion against the thieves and traitors of NewLabour and their chums in the press the coming session should involve the urgent shining of light into some dark corners. Mr Salmond's supporters have done well and are right to rejoice. There is particular pleasure to be found in contemplating the displeasure caused to the anxious, grubby, Calvinist dictator in number 11 Downing Street as he contemplates his "succession;" in the bitter hatreds which will explode among NewLabour UK plc, rivalry and opinion will cast their wild spell; we must hope that when they lie down their sleep is fractured by dead Iraqi children coming through the walls, screaming; by the unforgiving gaze of Tommy Atkins' bereaved mother and wife; by those condemned to torture, courtesy T Blair and J McConnell, in Uncle Sam's gulags. We have done well to oust at least some of the tyrants, the bullies, the torturers. We must hope that Mr Salmond , in pursuit of a second and third term, does not, as generally happens, let politics over-ride decency and humanity. Stick it to 'em. [/quote] TASTY McFADDEN..(or is it "tasteless" McFadden???) This of all days, you'd expect a bit of emotion on these posts, some angry, some euphoric.......but then we get YOU !!.......I expect you're the village idiot up in the islands. Have you thought about speaking to (sorry..shouting at..a psychiatrist at all. Your submission is barking mad...and as for your attack on Shirley McKie................you merely confirm here that you know F*** All about that case. Merely adding a few pro-SNP words won't disguise your mental state from any of us. Give my regards to Alistair Crowley please, you scary man...................(do social services visit often??)

tasty macfadden wrote:
There are other casualties. Whither Brand Sheridan and his fellow chauvinist, Mr John DirtyBook Aberdein of Orkney and Montmarte? Whither Mr Steve Arnott of that unlikely grouping, Socialists for Vivisection ? Perhaps they'll find a people's fortune writing for the wretched rags which have so disfigured this election - ie all of them; our thoughts must be with these warriors as they continue to battle for our freedoms; with any luck they will do this from penury and anonymity, perhaps even from Barlinnie. Mr Salmond might indicate, as a gesture of renewal, that MSPs are elected and paid to work full-time. Tory lawyers popping into the legislature when nothing more lucrative beckons in Court are no worse than mouthy celebrity socialists giving themselves paid leave of absence to pursue a legal battle of their own instigation; a nurse couldn't act like this, or a firefighter, they wouid be sacked . There was nothing in the deeply unpleasant McCletchie's manifesto about him working in the courts or taxi-ing himself about at my expense; nothing in tearful Tommy's vulgar, bombastic proclamations about taking three months off, trying to repair his marriage in front of the TV cameras. Mr Salmond should put a stop to MSPs larging it like this, contemptuously. The LibLab pactors distinguished themselves in so many ways that it is difficult to single-out one specific achievement. Kirsty Wark House at half a billion pounds, ten times the cost of the Welsh Assembly building, is pretty outstanding. Care homes all over Scotland are in meltdown for want of a few grand, fiver-an-hour arse wipers busting their backs, demoralised and undervalued. They must take comfort from the fact that the catastrophically incompetent Lord/Sir/Mr. David Steel, failed LibDem leader, has built himself a fitting monument with our money. Go back to your constituencies and prepare for sinecures. Arsehole. Three quarters of a million pounds of hush money paid to Officer McKie, for her HURT FEELINGS, didn't even have the desired effect of shutting her up. Jim Wallace QC MSP and Lady Jamieson, "Justice" ministers in charge have not offered one word of apology. The cross-dressing imbecile McConnell has refused an enquiry into events which have made Scottish jurisprudence (not to mention himself) a global laughing stock. McConnell should be impeached for perverting the course of justice. The Lord Advocate, Carpenter, jumped-up mouthy, Blairite gabshite has fled the country. Mr Salmond should seek his extradition; he could share a cell with Mr Sheridan. Mr Sticky Fingers McLeish has re-emerged, sharing with us his wisdom on electoral matters, comforted no doubt by the thirty-five grand a year for life pension we gladly and gratefully pay him for his own unique contribution to the body politic, Funny how politicos are allowed to retire on a fortune when anybody else would go to jail. Disgraced commentators, from Lardman Taylor to He-man Bell.have fed us pap that Holyrood has taken time to bed down, that the people have a growing pride in their parliament ( and, presumably, by association, in those tuppenny hustlers who report on it We have seen the nobility, the impartiality of the Scottish press in the past few weeks; only the perpetually bemused Gordon Brewer showing any signs of even-handedness) The Scottish Parliament owes us much. Reinvigourated by a presently untarnished nationalist party, emboldened by a rebellion against the thieves and traitors of NewLabour and their chums in the press the coming session should involve the urgent shining of light into some dark corners. Mr Salmond's supporters have done well and are right to rejoice. There is particular pleasure to be found in contemplating the displeasure caused to the anxious, grubby, Calvinist dictator in number 11 Downing Street as he contemplates his "succession;" in the bitter hatreds which will explode among NewLabour UK plc, rivalry and opinion will cast their wild spell; we must hope that when they lie down their sleep is fractured by dead Iraqi children coming through the walls, screaming; by the unforgiving gaze of Tommy Atkins' bereaved mother and wife; by those condemned to torture, courtesy T Blair and J McConnell, in Uncle Sam's gulags. We have done well to oust at least some of the tyrants, the bullies, the torturers. We must hope that Mr Salmond , in pursuit of a second and third term, does not, as generally happens, let politics over-ride decency and humanity. Stick it to 'em.

TASTY McFADDEN..(or is it "tasteless" McFadden???)

This of all days, you'd expect a bit of emotion on these posts, some angry, some euphoric.......but then we get YOU !!.......I expect you're the village idiot up in the islands.
Have you thought about speaking to (sorry..shouting at..a psychiatrist at all. Your submission is barking mad...and as for your attack on Shirley McKie................you merely confirm here that you know F*** All about that case.
Merely adding a few pro-SNP words won't disguise your mental state from any of us.
Give my regards to Alistair Crowley please, you scary man...................(do social services visit often??)

LJPR I've just had a look at your website please accept my apology, I hadn't realised you were 'special'.

As for your assertion that I'm an establishment troll, well I'm sorry to disappoint you. I'm actually an elder of Zion and will be coming for you....

Dobber hahahaha

The pro-New Labour propaganda goes on and on in the Herald!!!!!

SNP WON!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

For uncensored news please bookmark:

www.wsws.org
www.takingaimradio.info
www.onlinejournal.com
otherside123.blogspot.com
www.globalresearch.ca

Agent McConnell has served his country well. He has delivered us an SNP majority; a true Scot! Our 5th columnists in the unionist camp are victorious; let us all salute them.

Come in Agent McConnell; mission accomplished...

The best spoilt vote in the Scottish election

http://news.bbc.co.uk/go/pr/fr/-/1/hi/scotland/6625401.stm
Quote
"PROTEST VOTES
Sometimes a voter had clearly meant to spoil their ballot. I saw one paper on which a Nazi swastika had been very carefully drawn against each candidate's name. I suppose that was meant to send a message that none of the politicians standing was acceptable.

That paper, and others like it, had to be rejected, though perhaps there ought to be a "None of the above" box? "

LJPR LEGAL JUDICIAL POLITICAL REFORMERS
http://www.ljpr.cjb.net

LJPR, one or two well crafted posts indicates deep thought. 10+ repeating posts screams mental health problems.

Philip wrote:
Agent McConnell has served his country well. He has delivered us an SNP majority; a true Scot! Our 5th columnists in the unionist camp are victorious; let us all salute them. Come in Agent McConnell; mission accomplished...

You know, after having time to reflect on this terrible result
for the people of Scotland, I have to thank President Salmond
for reigniting my passion for politics.
It'll be interesting to see how the Greens cope with holding the balance of power.
I think Jack must use any power he has left to get a second
vote. All we have to do is hold what we have and get our votes
out in Cunninghame, Falkirk, Edinburgh and the western isles.
The protest vote that gave El Presdidente Salmond his 'win'
has reached its high tide. It wont take much for the people of
Scotland to come to the senses and vote Jack back.

Long live Scotland.

btw Phil...what majority??

yeah al and your one of their secret society trolls who's attempts to undermine the truth are wearing very thin.

Those that suffer mental problems are usually distracting attention away from their own need for a straight jacket.
For proof that we are controlled by devil worshippers, view one of their own kind that spilt the beans
http://video.google.com/googleplayer.swf?docId=2748614967389038944

Al wrote:
LJPR, one or two well crafted posts indicates deep thought. 10+ repeating posts screams mental health problems.

lol

LJPR LEGAL JUDICIAL POLITICAL wrote:
yeah al and your one of their secret society trolls who's attempts to undermine the truth are wearing very thin. Those that suffer mental problems are usually distracting attention away from their own need for a straight jacket. For proof that we are controlled by devil worshippers, view one of their own kind that spilt the beans http://video.google.com/googleplayer.swf?docId=2748614967389038944

Keep this going. I'm enjoying it.
Good comeback LJ

Here are the historical facts of Scotland's elections:

1999 SNP 35 Lab 56 LD 17 Con 18 Others 3
2003 SNP 27 Lab 50 LD 17 Con 18 Others 17
2007 SNP 47 Lab 46 LD 16 Con 17 Others 3

This signals a change for the long term - now watch:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KCsDmm-q4rs

and celebrate Scotland's future!

People of vision, people of all parties, armchair pundits, philosphers and bloggers - think what Scotland will be able to achieve in the future on the world stage. On election won't make the difference. But remember the feeling we all had on 11th September 1997 when we delivered the Yes (74.3%) Yes (63.5%) vote (with only the Cons dissenting).

Its hard to avoid having the suspicion that the chaos of Thursday nightt/Friday morning was a smokescreen to cover up the attempted rigging of our election by the Labour party.

I find it very strange that data is leaving the building where its read for "tabulation". How hard is it to add together a few thousand votes?. Answer ... its not. Something stinks about this whole episode ... personally I think the fix was in and it went wrong.

I would like to one day see the REPUBLIC OF SCOTLAND!!!!!

For uncensored news please bookmark:

www.wsws.org
www.takingaimradio.info
www.onlinejournal.com
otherside123.blogspot.com
www.globalresearch.ca

LJPR, as I don't believe in any god I cannot possibly believe in any devil.

Here's a link for you to consider...

http://tinyurl.com/37bur

Best of luck to you.

Good Morning to the new Scotland......!

..........Spin spin spin........Labour "came from behind" to lose-out to the SNP. Sorry ,were'nt Labour the largest in the Scottish parliament before Thursday's vote ?
Seems even in defeat Labour are deluded - and trying to kid the voters has'nt worked and they are now trying to spin the result - reality check time - please !

To the Herald, Daily Record , the Sun, the Scotsman and the rest of the unionist press etc - please note that today the world still spins on it's axis.

Philip wrote:
Agent McConnell has served his country well. He has delivered us an SNP majority; a true Scot! Our 5th columnists in the unionist camp are victorious; let us all salute them.

Come in Agent McConnell; mission accomplished...

47 seats out of 129 an SNP majority? Education, education education right enough!!!!

# John Pegron

Good links! The MSM (mainstream media) is lies and spin! Also try:

http://whatreallyhappened.com/

Independence will take a while yet - republic a wee bit longer, but I notice the monarchy is on a visit tae the oul colony, and no up in Scotland celebrating wi the rest o us.

There's no nationalist torrents here unionists - keep your ******* stereotypes to yourself. They didn't work. Even with the Daily Rectum and The Scum printing BS everyday in existence and hammering said BS into the heads of the majority of the folk of the West Coast. Instead, if you care to look a while, you'll find people who care deeply about their country, what it can do - what they *know* it can do - with other countries, including our neighbours. Essentially - 47-46 is the same as 50-43. Coalition was always a reality. Fine ;o) Nicol Stephen's gutless campaign comes to a close. I swear, if I ever here a soundbite in regards to '...we're the party that believes in 1-hour of activity a day for our children...' I'll self-combust. Yesterday, I was very glad to see Mr.Stephen reiterate the fact that the winner is the winner - 47/46 or 49/44 - whatever. Now - his *entire campaign* apparently, has been about empowering the parliament. I am right? Yes. The SNP have said they'll give him that question. I am right? Yes. There has to be a coalition - and frankly, if there is none - it's a parody on democracy. If I were really cynical, I would be thinking of cretins Blair and Brown taking their baggage train North again - to wax lyrical about 'true democracy'. If they want to create a schism in the country - go ahead. Of that, I have no doubt. If I were really, really cynical - I'd think that a union think-tank might figure that the best strategy against the SNP would be to not dance with coalition - at all - thus disallowing the superb Alex Salmond from actually taking the country forward. Again, this would be an appalling thing to throw at democracy. Ask yourself - ultimately, who suffers? The people - through selfish unionist meanderings. It better not happen. Otherwise it 500,000 people on Princes Street. Finally - before any unionist comes on barking about the 'legitimate' nature of a Lab-Lib coalition - shut-it! Unionists you may be - but create and control your campaign based on your own *political principles* you did. Enough of that nonsense. Swallow it - and help us make Scotland a better - a far better - place. Last word. Congrats to all those idealistic, imaginative pro-SNP posters these past weeks. My eyes are sore. My fingers *bleeding*. My heart glad. My mind - hmmmm, what is that feeling? F*****g hell. It's 'hope'. I'll be raising a dram for each and every one of you. We have to *work* these next few years - and spread the simple truths that support - in my mind - the SNP. Self-worth. Friendship. Inclusiveness. A small nation on a globe of small nations. ;o) A night of history lads and lassies - and we were there.

There's no nationalist torrents here unionists - keep your ******* stereotypes to yourself. They didn't work. Even with the Daily Rectum and The Scum printing BS everyday in existence and hammering said BS into the heads of the majority of the folk of the West Coast.

Instead, if you care to look a while, you'll find people who care deeply about their country, what it can do - what they *know* it can do - with other countries, including our neighbours.

Essentially - 47-46 is the same as 50-43. Coalition was always a reality. Fine ;o)

Nicol Stephen's gutless campaign comes to a close. I swear, if I ever here a soundbite in regards to '...we're the party that believes in 1-hour of activity a day for our children...' I'll self-combust.

Yesterday, I was very glad to see Mr.Stephen reiterate the fact that the winner is the winner - 47/46 or 49/44 - whatever.

Now - his *entire campaign* apparently, has been about empowering the parliament.

I am right? Yes.

The SNP have said they'll give him that question. I am right? Yes.

There has to be a coalition - and frankly, if there is none - it's a parody on democracy.

If I were really cynical, I would be thinking of cretins Blair and Brown taking their baggage train North again - to wax lyrical about 'true democracy'.

If they want to create a schism in the country - go ahead. Of that, I have no doubt.

If I were really, really cynical - I'd think that a union think-tank might figure that the best strategy against the SNP would be to not dance with coalition - at all - thus disallowing the superb Alex Salmond from actually taking the country forward.

Again, this would be an appalling thing to throw at democracy.

Ask yourself - ultimately, who suffers? The people - through selfish unionist meanderings.
It better not happen. Otherwise it 500,000 people on Princes Street.

Finally - before any unionist comes on barking about the 'legitimate' nature of a Lab-Lib coalition - shut-it!

Unionists you may be - but create and control your campaign based on your own *political principles* you did. Enough of that nonsense.

Swallow it - and help us make Scotland a better - a far better - place.

Last word. Congrats to all those idealistic, imaginative pro-SNP posters these past weeks.

My eyes are sore. My fingers *bleeding*.

My heart glad. My mind - hmmmm, what is that feeling?

F*****g hell. It's 'hope'.

I'll be raising a dram for each and every one of you.

We have to *work* these next few years - and spread the simple truths that support - in my mind - the SNP. Self-worth. Friendship. Inclusiveness. A small nation on a globe of small nations. ;o)

A night of history lads and lassies - and we were there.

One last wee thing!

Action number one Alec:

An independent press to match the hopeful aspirations of the next four-years, and beyond...

We *must* press for this.

Time to move on Douglas Alexander. He's the boy responsible for the voting fiasco and the negative campaign. He's a wee turd and a walking soundbite. There isn't any ideology in his political makeup and he really does deserve to be sacked for his efforts. Watch oot fur Wendy, she's the only one in Labour who can give Salmond a decent debate, but she too is new Labour to the bone. I recall her at Uni (in fact she gave me my first year Labour member's card). I also recall the MP Murphy at Eastwood - both hard core Labour firebrands. Now look at them. What a disgrace.

I don't know about anyone else but I'm worried for the SNP. I can't see them coming out of the executive negotiations about to occur and next 4 years without having a torrid time from the Unionists and press. It's going to be very difficult and because I know this it makes me want to run up to Douglas Alexander and punch his light s oot. Not adult I know, but I just needed to get it off my chest.

I remember the same feeling of hope in 1997 when Blair stood outside Downing Street, look what that gave us. The easiest job in the world is opposition. No decisions to take and no responsibility.
Give it your best shot Salmond but I'm willing to bet you're no better then the rest, a lying self serving b******d

I was travelling home from work on the A82 approaching Milton when I heard Alex Salmond delivering his speech "on the white house lawn" so to speak. For the first time I actually felt that a modern Scottish politician would be able to stand on the world stage and promote this nation without the clawing embarrassment of Mr McConnell trying to do a Tony. The warm glow was quickly removed however on my arrival home to find that Jackie Baillie had been returned as our MSP, her majority has been cut but never the less the people of Dumbarton have once again shown that no matter what New Labour do they can get away with it, kiss bye bye to the vale hospital then. Well done to the rest of Scotland who have given our wee nation a fighting chance. Oh and do I detect a rather nasty right wing bent to some of these posts? Lets not go down that road please, in 4 years time that will certainly bite you all in the backside.

I have been on these forums for the last few days antagonising the Unionists and Labour supporters something silly. But now that it comes to it, I would (briefly) like to put politics aside and ask any of the (Scottish) Unionists (Labour, Tory, LibDems etc.) why they think that Scotland should be part of the union.

What exactly is it that you think that Scotland has to gain from a union with England?
When referring to your nationality do you use Scot or Brit?

That�ll do to be getting on with.

Perhaps the "Jack and Gordon" show can go away and think about where they would like to park Trident now! Not on our doorstep!!!

Oh and Jack, if there's a war with Iran, i hope Gordon calls your wean up to serve!

What a wonderful night, I'm so pleased that the SNP won.Here's to running our own affairs!

Well done Alec Salmond and the SNP.Unfotunately,I was one of those people who did not recieve my postal vote in time.However,my SNP candidate in Inverness,Nairn and Lochaber increased his majority to over 5,000.Well done fergus.

My Finnish wife brought back Champagne from a business trip to Stockholm last night.We are using it now to celebrate.We always planned to return to Scotland once the working life had ended.This election provides additional incentive to return to Scotland.

Of course the horse trading has to start because of the arithmetic.However,the psychological impact of this result is significant.The SNp can win elections.I would also urge the Liberals to be sensible by collaborating with Alec Salmond,for the sake of the country.Their results are a warning to them about the consequences of playing hard ball.Their leader got a real scare in Aberdeen as the SNP trimmed 5,000 votes pof his previous majority.Gordon and Argyll & Bute.They should reflect on what could happen to them and behave responsibly by working with Alec Salmond to deliver policies that the electorate want.

"The Scottish Labour leadership of Jack McConnell is now in doubt, but having lost only four seats, there is still a chance he will remain as First Minister. Mr McConnell said yesterday he would "keep all options open" and that he would not rush into hasty coalition decisions."

Looks like the good folk at Herald are in denial. How can they print such piffle?
The Leader fo the Scottish Lib Dems has said that the SNP as the largest party have the moral authority to govern and they've said all along that the largest single party must be in power. They are not stupid enough to go back on this, obviously, and I doubt they'd wish to. They are as sick of Labour as the rest of us.

The Tories have stated continuously that they will not enter a coalition. So who exactly does the Herald think Labour are going to go into coalition with?

Irvine no more, Falkirk no more, Musselburgh no more, Stornoway no moooooore!
Wee Jack is back in his box . The First Minister to lose a Scottish general election in 50 years.
Despite the lies, the smears, the personal attacks, the outrageous reporting of the unionist press placemen, Alex Salmond received over 50,000 votes more than the muppet formerly known as Arran Jack.
May 4th, the day the Goat Fell!

Who'll take the ba' fae Maggie Thatcher.....
kick it in another goal,
oh there's plenty time to play at fitba'
when yer livin on the dole

The Tories say they'll put the great back in Great Britain,
if that helps us we'll huv to wait and see,
but LAST NIGHT WE PUT THE SCOT BACK INTO SCOTLAND
Scotland has supported SNP!!!!!!

:-)

An lot of talk about it ONLY being 1 seat and ONLY 54,000 votes but the SNP won an additonal 20 seats out of 129 and toppled the Labour parties power base in scotland for the first time in 50 years! It does not matter if it was by 1 seat or 10 LAbour lost and no matter how you paint it, even with their damage limitation in the last few days before, YOU LOST!

There are now ony 2 councils in Scotland with a Labour majority as well, this is a resounding failure in an election for the Labour party where they have dominated for 50 years and cannot be put down to just a mid-term reaction.

Looking forward to the next 4 years when the Scottish Parliament cam really establish it's own reputation, standing by itself without a London party pulling the strings.

Having read the posts this morning, I cannot understand why the SNP supporters are so aggressive and abusive. What is it that makes you so braveheart like? Some examples:

"Oh happy day, when the last labour supporter is battered to death with the last copy of the daily record."

"To all those who had a vote and but couldn't be bothered to vote - you are a disgrace."

" Let them feel it where it hurts. Better still, if you run out of toilet roll........... "

Before I make my point, I never voted. And why? Because devolution promised us grown up politics, no more argy bargy, mudslinging etc. What we have got from all parties, and no party can take the moral high ground here, was more of the same. When are we going to engage in proper grown up debates as to how we should all move forward?

To the SNP supporters, do you realy think that comments such as these posts will endear you to those who are unsure, or do not wish independance, to your point of view.

The way forward

I've added a new song that has been the soundtrack for my celebrations last night and the lyrics are, in fact, very resonant for this election and it didn't occur at first but have a wee listen and see what yout think. It's a great song and I know it's seems like I'm shamelessly plugging a mypace page but it's just a bit of fun after all.

Enjoy.

www.myspace.com/solus_sui_juris

[quote][bold]John[/bold] wrote: Having read the posts this morning, I cannot understand why the SNP supporters are so aggressive and abusive. What is it that makes you so braveheart like? Some examples: "Oh happy day, when the last labour supporter is battered to death with the last copy of the daily record." "To all those who had a vote and but couldn't be bothered to vote - you are a disgrace." " Let them feel it where it hurts. Better still, if you run out of toilet roll........... " Before I make my point, I never voted. And why? Because devolution promised us grown up politics, no more argy bargy, mudslinging etc. What we have got from all parties, and no party can take the moral high ground here, was more of the same. When are we going to engage in proper grown up debates as to how we should all move forward? To the SNP supporters, do you realy think that comments such as these posts will endear you to those who are unsure, or do not wish independance, to your point of view. The way forward [/quote] Having been called 'fascists' and 'small-minded', parochial', 'incompetent', 'stupid', 'liars' ......blah blah....etc etc and all of the personal attacks that members of the SNP have suffered at the hands of the unionist Nu Labour camp for more years than I care to remember, purely because we think our country should stand on its own two feet. I personally don't really care who it 'endears' me to. The same people who flung these insults around for years based on a feeling of superiority and pure arrogance, will just have to take a few slings and arrows for a couple of days. I am sure Mr Salmond will be far more gracious in victory than his Nu Labour counterparts could ever be. However I am just an ordinary voting joe who cannot stand what Blair, Brown and wee Joke have done to the once great Labour movement. So with that I say............get it right up ye Nu Labour!

John wrote:
Having read the posts this morning, I cannot understand why the SNP supporters are so aggressive and abusive. What is it that makes you so braveheart like? Some examples:

"Oh happy day, when the last labour supporter is battered to death with the last copy of the daily record."

"To all those who had a vote and but couldn't be bothered to vote - you are a disgrace."

" Let them feel it where it hurts. Better still, if you run out of toilet roll........... "

Before I make my point, I never voted. And why? Because devolution promised us grown up politics, no more argy bargy, mudslinging etc. What we have got from all parties, and no party can take the moral high ground here, was more of the same. When are we going to engage in proper grown up debates as to how we should all move forward?

To the SNP supporters, do you realy think that comments such as these posts will endear you to those who are unsure, or do not wish independance, to your point of view.

The way forward

Having been called 'fascists' and 'small-minded', parochial', 'incompetent', 'stupid', 'liars' ......blah blah....etc etc and all of the personal attacks that members of the SNP have suffered at the hands of the unionist Nu Labour camp for more years than I care to remember, purely because we think our country should stand on its own two feet.
I personally don't really care who it 'endears' me to.

The same people who flung these insults around for years based on a feeling of superiority and pure arrogance, will just have to take a few slings and arrows for a couple of days.

I am sure Mr Salmond will be far more gracious in victory than his Nu Labour counterparts could ever be.
However I am just an ordinary voting joe who cannot stand what Blair, Brown and wee Joke have done to the once great Labour movement.

So with that I say............get it right up ye Nu Labour!

Not surprisingly Alex Salmond is taliking extravagantly about "moral" authority to govern Scotland for the next 4 years. He has it he insists and nobody else does. The Election results, viewed disapassionately, gave neither party any mandate to govern in its own right. The results show also that support for parties which favour the Union greatly outweighs support for the SNP. It would, therefore, be entirely legitimate, if Mr Salmond cannot gain support for coalition, for the majority views of the Scottish Electorate to be reflected through a coalition involving agreement between the Unionist parties. Such an outcome would reflect the complex outcome of the Election and could not be represented - by any reasonable and objective judgement - as (using the exterme and intolerant language which sadly appears so often here) as any kind of affront to democracy. On the contrary, it would result in an administration with a licence to govern based on accommodation of a range of different points of view.voted

i'm so pleased with the result and optomistic for the future. it would be truly shameful if the lib-dems form a pact with labour to keep the snp from forming a goverment, with nichol stephen going back on his word. his party leader ming campbell is all but advocating that today. that's the fundamental problem with the british parties who have a "scottish" wing - their scottish leaders serve 2 masters: the scottish people and westminster.
i would have no problem with a snp-liberal-green coalition. it's not ideal but compromise is important in a democracy, i respect some of the greens' ideas and the lib-dems are ok (if only they's stop trying to please everone all the time and showed a bit of backbone) my dad voted lib-dem all his life but he's a nationalist as well.
more powers for the parliament are needed, i think that's clear, the election proved there is a positive feeling in favour of that, either by degrees or by immediate independence.
ps. does anyone else object to scotland being called "gordon brown's backyard" i've read that so many times this morning!

As Martin McDonald, 10.47 am, said

Sorry, I pressed the wrong key!

[quote][bold]Rab[/bold] wrote: [quote][bold]John[/bold] wrote: Having read the posts this morning, I cannot understand why the SNP supporters are so aggressive and abusive. What is it that makes you so braveheart like? Some examples: "Oh happy day, when the last labour supporter is battered to death with the last copy of the daily record." "To all those who had a vote and but couldn't be bothered to vote - you are a disgrace." " Let them feel it where it hurts. Better still, if you run out of toilet roll........... " Before I make my point, I never voted. And why? Because devolution promised us grown up politics, no more argy bargy, mudslinging etc. What we have got from all parties, and no party can take the moral high ground here, was more of the same. When are we going to engage in proper grown up debates as to how we should all move forward? To the SNP supporters, do you realy think that comments such as these posts will endear you to those who are unsure, or do not wish independance, to your point of view. The way forward [/quote] Having been called 'fascists' and 'small-minded', parochial', 'incompetent', 'stupid', 'liars' ......blah blah....etc etc and all of the personal attacks that members of the SNP have suffered at the hands of the unionist Nu Labour camp for more years than I care to remember, purely because we think our country should stand on its own two feet. I personally don't really care who it 'endears' me to. The same people who flung these insults around for years based on a feeling of superiority and pure arrogance, will just have to take a few slings and arrows for a couple of days. I am sure Mr Salmond will be far more gracious in victory than his Nu Labour counterparts could ever be. However I am just an ordinary voting joe who cannot stand what Blair, Brown and wee Joke have done to the once great Labour movement. So with that I say............get it right up ye Nu Labour![/quote] 2 wrongs don't make a right and if you read my post, I was critical of all parties, and supporters, in they way they behave. If you think abuse and agression is the way forward then you are entitled to your opinion, however I find it sad. I maybe simple, but I thought that if you are trying to inform people about why they should perhaps agree wuth you, then you start off badly by abusing them. This isn't a fight or a war we are engaing in. When we will all grow up and engage in debate rather than abuse, that's the point here?

Rab wrote:

John wrote: Having read the posts this morning, I cannot understand why the SNP supporters are so aggressive and abusive. What is it that makes you so braveheart like? Some examples: "Oh happy day, when the last labour supporter is battered to death with the last copy of the daily record." "To all those who had a vote and but couldn't be bothered to vote - you are a disgrace." " Let them feel it where it hurts. Better still, if you run out of toilet roll........... " Before I make my point, I never voted. And why? Because devolution promised us grown up politics, no more argy bargy, mudslinging etc. What we have got from all parties, and no party can take the moral high ground here, was more of the same. When are we going to engage in proper grown up debates as to how we should all move forward? To the SNP supporters, do you realy think that comments such as these posts will endear you to those who are unsure, or do not wish independance, to your point of view. The way forward
Having been called 'fascists' and 'small-minded', parochial', 'incompetent', 'stupid', 'liars' ......blah blah....etc etc and all of the personal attacks that members of the SNP have suffered at the hands of the unionist Nu Labour camp for more years than I care to remember, purely because we think our country should stand on its own two feet. I personally don't really care who it 'endears' me to. The same people who flung these insults around for years based on a feeling of superiority and pure arrogance, will just have to take a few slings and arrows for a couple of days. I am sure Mr Salmond will be far more gracious in victory than his Nu Labour counterparts could ever be. However I am just an ordinary voting joe who cannot stand what Blair, Brown and wee Joke have done to the once great Labour movement. So with that I say............get it right up ye Nu Labour!

2 wrongs don't make a right and if you read my post, I was critical of all parties, and supporters, in they way they behave.

If you think abuse and agression is the way forward then you are entitled to your opinion, however I find it sad.

I maybe simple, but I thought that if you are trying to inform people about why they should perhaps agree wuth you, then you start off badly by abusing them. This isn't a fight or a war we are engaing in.

When we will all grow up and engage in debate rather than abuse, that's the point here?

Try again.

As Martin McDonald, at 10.47 am, said
The Tories have stated continuously that they will not enter a coalition. So who exactly does the Herald think Labour are going to go into coalition with?

Labour can't form a coalition of 65 or more seats without the Tories. And A. Goldie isn't a lady who's easily "for turning".

Why don't they give up the pretence and settle for forming an opposition? (I would have said "honourable" opposition but...)

Why are none of the small parties challenging this result, especially Solidarity given they were only standing on the regional list?

Is it prohibitively expensive to make a legal challenge?

So much for democracy.

Good to see nu labour get the kicking they richly deserve although an SNP-led government will of course do the bidding of the rich also.

Congratulations to Eck and Co. for their great persistance and fortitude through all the press lies and spin............(that's the REAL disgrace in a democracy).
I'm sure that you'n'yours are well aware that the attacks, bad enough up till now, will come thick and fast, and need to be rebuffed at EVERY opportunity. We trust you to do just that.
Carpe Diem SNP.

John said "2 wrongs don't make a right and if you read my post, I was critical of all parties, and supporters, in they way they behave. If you think abuse and agression is the way forward then you are entitled to your opinion, however I find it sad. I maybe simple, but I thought that if you are trying to inform people about why they should perhaps agree wuth you, then you start off badly by abusing them. This isn't a fight or a war we are engaing in. When we will all grow up and engage in debate rather than abuse, that's the point here?" My comment was the one regarding the' last labour supporter' and is a quotation. I find it funny and apt, if you see it as aggresive then that is your perogative. I am always up for debate, and I believe that the platform of the SNP is a very easy one to win debates from. However when the average unionist is cornered by logic and factual interpretation they resort to personal jibes and downright lies. Having taken this for years I don't think it unreasonable to 'gloat' ever so slightly seasoned with a pinch of '**** taking'. The bile and abuse that has come from the Labour party during this campaign is nothing short of a scandal, even in victory one of their candidates could not wait abuse the SNP from the platform when the people she was accusing of heckling and worse were in fact members of the SCP! It is instinctive with them to deride and insult, many of them even at the highest levels are not particularly bright individuals. I speak from personal experience of dealing with several MPs and MSP's. The 'debate' is fairly easily won.....descending to abuse is wrong as you say and will in the end not help. But I repeat.....allow me and others this little moment of glee and some 'payback' "Oh happy day when the last labour supporter is beaten to death with the last copy of the daily record" : )

John said

"2 wrongs don't make a right and if you read my post, I was critical of all parties, and supporters, in they way they behave.

If you think abuse and agression is the way forward then you are entitled to your opinion, however I find it sad.

I maybe simple, but I thought that if you are trying to inform people about why they should perhaps agree wuth you, then you start off badly by abusing them. This isn't a fight or a war we are engaing in.

When we will all grow up and engage in debate rather than abuse, that's the point here?"

My comment was the one regarding the' last labour supporter' and is a quotation.

I find it funny and apt, if you see it as aggresive then that is your perogative.
I am always up for debate, and I believe that the platform of the SNP is a very easy one to win debates from.
However when the average unionist is cornered by logic and factual interpretation they resort to personal jibes and downright lies.
Having taken this for years I don't think it unreasonable to 'gloat' ever so slightly seasoned with a pinch of '**** taking'.

The bile and abuse that has come from the Labour party during this campaign is nothing short of a scandal, even in victory one of their candidates could not wait abuse the SNP from the platform when the people she was accusing of heckling and worse were in fact members of the SCP!

It is instinctive with them to deride and insult, many of them even at the highest levels are not particularly bright individuals.
I speak from personal experience of dealing with several MPs and MSP's.

The 'debate' is fairly easily won.....descending to abuse is wrong as you say and will in the end not help.

But I repeat.....allow me and others this little moment of glee and some 'payback'

"Oh happy day when the last labour supporter is beaten to death with the last copy of the daily record" : )

Yes Wonderwoman, I know that the Labour Party Could not be part of a coalition with a majority. If Mr Salmond can craft a majority coalition then hat administration will have authority to govern within the limits of its precarious position in the Parliament. I simply make the point that if Mr Salmond cannot achieve agreement on such a coalition - and that is the most likely outcome - we are left with some interesting possibilities. I suggest simply that the Tories, as a Unionist Party and conscious of the expressed will of those who voted, could not do other than vote against any proposed minority coalition involving the SNP but could tolerate one which did not.

Separatist wrote:
# John Pegron Good links! The MSM (mainstream media) is lies and spin! Also try: http://whatreallyhappened.com/ Independence will take a while yet - republic a wee bit longer, but I notice the monarchy is on a visit tae the oul colony, and no up in Scotland celebrating wi the rest o us.

Count me in wi' you guys then !!!!

Our country refused to be swayed by partisan english-owned media. Regardless of what happens from here, we have sent a strong message with this result. Well done Scotland!

Congratulations to Willie Coffey for finally making the breakthrough long awaited in Kilmarnock and Loudoun. I wasn't at the count, but I imagine he glanced towards the heavens to tip his hat to wee Danny.

Willie's brother Danny, who died suddenly last year, worked tirelessly for both Kilmarnock and Loudoun and the cause of independence. Killie folk of all political hues respected the hard work and fair, positive approach Danny had, and we look to Willie to continue and build on Danny's legacy.

Well done Willie, I'm sure the wee man had the biggest smile of all.

Should we not wait until they actually manage to form a government before the jubilations begin ??

Look what happened in Catalunya a few years back, the equivamlent of the Nats won by a very slim majority and then the other parties formed a coalition with the PSOC and well, the Nats couldn't form a government....

Counting your chickens etc.

After reading the postings all I can say is that I by not using my vote I have made my point ,all we are getting is one set of middle class tossers being replaced by an other set of middle class tossers sorry to to spoil a lot of peoples dreams but nothing is going to change.

As an add on, if SNP supporters think that the press were bad wait untill they really get their teeth into you when in power there is no such thing as a free press nerver has and never will be learn to live with it or as Sir Mat Busby replied to a question about the press " does not bother me as I neaver read them"

For paolo and the other unionistas who appear to be incapable of defining a majority (not employed by DNS are you all?); 47 seats against 46 seats = a majority of seats. BTW, there are no border posts yet (as imagined by that prat Reid) so get your skates on and head south rapido. But would the english people welcome more Scots? Wake up time for the unionistas methinks. Well done Agent McConnell...

Well done Alex, MSPs, and all those on the ground who helped make it happen.
Great day for Scotland. Be wary of the Lib Dems though. A better choice would be the Conservatives (Tartanise their image a bit).
A proud day!

Just a quick question not trying to annoy anyone here just looking for an answer.

How can a devolved government have any say over trident when it is a westminster issue? in fact defence is all a westminster issue.

The fact that the Scottish Parliament may say we dont want it. Wont affect much at all, will it?

And if a referendum is held on idependence and independence takes place will trident not actually have been pretty much bought and paid for by then with all our money??

Not saying Im for or against, just want to know.

[quote][bold]Total Abstainer[/bold] wrote: After reading the postings all I can say is that I by not using my vote I have made my point ,all we are getting is one set of middle class tossers being replaced by an other set of middle class tossers sorry to to spoil a lot of peoples dreams but nothing is going to change. As an add on, if SNP supporters think that the press were bad wait untill they really get their teeth into you when in power there is no such thing as a free press nerver has and never will be learn to live with it or as Sir Mat Busby replied to a question about the press " does not bother me as I neaver read them"[/quote] If you deliberately disenfranchise yourself by not using your vote then in my view you should have no opinion on the subject of politics and its effects. The power to vote in a democracy is not some frivolous whim that floated into your lap from above. It was won by the hard work, sweat, dedication.....aye.. and the blood of your forefathers. It should be given up only after the hardest of struggles and certainly never cast aside to make a 'point'. In my view any voter who refuses to use his or her vote should be subject to a penalty under the law.

Total Abstainer wrote:
After reading the postings all I can say is that I by not using my vote I have made my point ,all we are getting is one set of middle class tossers being replaced by an other set of middle class tossers sorry to to spoil a lot of peoples dreams but nothing is going to change.

As an add on, if SNP supporters think that the press were bad wait untill they really get their teeth into you when in power there is no such thing as a free press nerver has and never will be learn to live with it or as Sir Mat Busby replied to a question about the press " does not bother me as I neaver read them"

If you deliberately disenfranchise yourself by not using your vote then in my view you should have no opinion on the subject of politics and its effects.

The power to vote in a democracy is not some frivolous whim that floated into your lap from above.
It was won by the hard work, sweat, dedication.....aye.. and the blood of your forefathers.
It should be given up only after the hardest of struggles and certainly never cast aside to make a 'point'.

In my view any voter who refuses to use his or her vote should be subject to a penalty under the law.

Total Abstainer wrote:
After reading the postings all I can say is that I by not using my vote I have made my point ,all we are getting is one set of middle class tossers being replaced by an other set of middle class tossers sorry to to spoil a lot of peoples dreams but nothing is going to change.

As an add on, if SNP supporters think that the press were bad wait untill they really get their teeth into you when in power there is no such thing as a free press nerver has and never will be learn to live with it or as Sir Mat Busby replied to a question about the press " does not bother me as I neaver read them"

I have no idea why this forum posts twice!!!

WOW!
I�m glad that something good and really interesting seems to happen in Scotland! Keep on going!

Perhaps those who publish this newspaper will read all the comments made here and now realise that their pro-Labour stance is bad for sales.

Mark wrote:
Its hard to avoid having the suspicion that the chaos of Thursday nightt/Friday morning was a smokescreen to cover up the attempted rigging of our election by the Labour party. I find it very strange that data is leaving the building where its read for \"tabulation\". How hard is it to add together a few thousand votes?. Answer ... its not. Something stinks about this whole episode ... personally I think the fix was in and it went wrong.

And do you know who the directors of DRS are? Well, they include none other than former Labour leader Neil Kinnock (ooops - that's Lord Kinnock now isn't it - working class hero who sold out the Welsh miners) and a number of other well-connected persons. Check out their 2006 Annual Report on the website: http://www.drs.co.uk/pdf/DRSfullcol2006.pdf.

Wonder how much of the electronic counting was put out to competitive tender?

No doubt the super-aloof Douglas Alexander will be taking full responsibility for the incompetence shown in arranging the elections, format of ballot papers etc, ably assisted by his holiness David Cairns MP? Absolute disgrace!

Posted by: Andrew, Inverness on 1:29pm today
Perhaps those who publish this newspaper will read all the comments made here and now realise that their pro-Labour stance is bad for sales.
Perhaps those who publish this newspaper will read all the comments made here and now realise that their pro-Labour stance is bad for sales.

The Herald is a Glasgow based paper. The people in Glasgow
are firmly behind the old religion. The Herald reflects its target
audience
Well done Herald. I look forward to you exposing President Salmon
and his band of separists.

Paolo,

Look at the results. The SNP were snapping at Labour heels all over Glasgow and Lanarkshire (the only parts of Scotland Labour now have any sort of support). The Labour majoritis were cut to about 1000 in seat where they had once had 70% of the vote.

The 'old religion' is going the way of all old religions in an age of enlightment.

It's a new time

Well done Scotland. SNP, now's the chance to govern our country responsibly. I for one will be returning for 2010.

Lets take a look at the big picture for a while.

The U.K. government has just presided over one of the biggest miscarriages of democracy in a Western State in modern times. What are the U.K. Ministers doing right now? Where are Brown, Reid, Alexander, Darling et all hiding? They seem to have retreated into their bunker clueless about what to do next except make the odd soundbite.

At the very least there should have been a cabinet press conference acknowledging what had happened and what action is going to be taken as a result yet the matter seems to have been cast aside leaving only the First Minister Elect to speak out about it.

Clearly Labour is in crisis. They may not have faced electoral meltdown in Scotland but that they are in organisational meltdown is plain to see and I think we can expect some very devious and underhand conduct from them in the days to come assuming they (and the media I will add) can manage to pull their heads out of the sand.

Hello WORLD!

New York Times
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/05/05/world/europe/05britain.html?_r=1&oref=slogin

Washington Post
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/05/05/AR2007050500309.html

Los Angeles Times
http://www.latimes.com/news/printedition/asection/la-fg-scotland5may05,1,956999.story?coll=la-news-a_section

Canada.com
http://www.canada.com/topics/news/world/story.html?id=1cd405e4-0842-4001-9f65-1cb0b05b2899&k=16909

Sydney Morning Herald
http://www.smh.com.au/news/world/blairs-poison-chalice/2007/05/05/1177788443379.html

Al Jazeera
http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/1954AFAD-8A2F-430C-AF47-46F2CFCB9074.htm

CNN
http://www.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/europe/05/05/britain.election.reut/

Congratulations to Scotlands folk for sqeezing out change from

under the weight of the propoganda!

We have to concede, however, that the labour vote did NOT

actually collapse - and in the face of the level of dissent expressed

before the elections, this is actually quite worrying. How could the

voting figures stay so stable for Labour? I congratulate Salmond for

finally getting his shot at national leadership. But what a job he has

now, with no clear majority (a majority I felt he deserved to get). If

there really are numpties in at Holyrood, I predict that they'll have a

field day tearing up Nationalist policy for the next few years - just for

spite, if nothing else!

The Sun, Daily Record and the Mail front pages were a disgrace to this country I will be telling people, I will never buy these publications again.

Malcolm,

I agree with the cuts in majorities but they didn't take the seats.
Labour , despite everything, have only lost 4 seats.
I expect a second vote, the unionist parties owe this to the 66% of
voters who do not want to go down the nationalist road.

Posted by: Jim Mathieson, Glasgow on 3:22pm today

The Sun, Daily Record and the Mail front pages were a disgrace to this country I will be telling people, I will never buy these publications again.

Why Jim? They represent 66% of opinion of the voters in the Election

Well done Alex Salmond and SNP. Ran a positive campaign, looked most professional and raised quality of debate in Scotland. Hope they maintain this and get right to govern through Holyrood.
Ex-pats should support Scotland but should remember they can cause resentment by appearing to be a token Scot. Put your money and self back in Scotland and help the nation to move forward.
Labour and the other parties in Scotland need to remember they are a Scottish branch of a political movement and therefore should be working for Scotland within their own political opinions not England, wales nor northern Ireland, that is for Westminster

Hope Scotland continues to grow up

If anyone thinks that Jack and his Lib Dem pals are going to give up control they should think again! Having conspired together to strangle the parliament at birth, why should they start to listen to what the electorate wants now? (Unless the economic slump which is rushing up on us is worse than we realise and they want out.)
Even the Scots Westminster Tories started to devalue MSPs weeks ago in preparation for them being in power in England and wanting to re-instate 'governors' like Lang, Rifkind, Forsyth et al.

[quote][bold]Rab[/bold] wrote: [quote][bold]Total Abstainer[/bold] wrote: After reading the postings all I can say is that I by not using my vote I have made my point ,all we are getting is one set of middle class tossers being replaced by an other set of middle class tossers sorry to to spoil a lot of peoples dreams but nothing is going to change. As an add on, if SNP supporters think that the press were bad wait untill they really get their teeth into you when in power there is no such thing as a free press nerver has and never will be learn to live with it or as Sir Mat Busby replied to a question about the press " does not bother me as I neaver read them"[/quote] If you deliberately disenfranchise yourself by not using your vote then in my view you should have no opinion on the subject of politics and its effects. The power to vote in a democracy is not some frivolous whim that floated into your lap from above. It was won by the hard work, sweat, dedication.....aye.. and the blood of your forefathers. It should be given up only after the hardest of struggles and certainly never cast aside to make a 'point'. In my view any voter who refuses to use his or her vote should be subject to a penalty under the law.[/quote] Rab are you wearing a black uniform,this is a democracy just as you have a right to vote I have the right not to vote if I think they are all a lot of middle class tossers I have not passed comments on any political party or what they stood for as I think they are all the same we are a nation goverened by middle class tossers at all levels nothing will change watch this space in 4 years time it will not have changed,who ever pays the most will get what they want from any government.

Rab wrote:

Total Abstainer wrote: After reading the postings all I can say is that I by not using my vote I have made my point ,all we are getting is one set of middle class tossers being replaced by an other set of middle class tossers sorry to to spoil a lot of peoples dreams but nothing is going to change. As an add on, if SNP supporters think that the press were bad wait untill they really get their teeth into you when in power there is no such thing as a free press nerver has and never will be learn to live with it or as Sir Mat Busby replied to a question about the press " does not bother me as I neaver read them"
If you deliberately disenfranchise yourself by not using your vote then in my view you should have no opinion on the subject of politics and its effects. The power to vote in a democracy is not some frivolous whim that floated into your lap from above. It was won by the hard work, sweat, dedication.....aye.. and the blood of your forefathers. It should be given up only after the hardest of struggles and certainly never cast aside to make a 'point'. In my view any voter who refuses to use his or her vote should be subject to a penalty under the law.

Rab are you wearing a black uniform,this is a democracy just as you have a right to vote I have the right not to vote if I think they are all a lot of middle class tossers I have not passed comments on any political party or what they stood for as I think they are all the same we are a nation goverened by middle class tossers at all levels nothing will change watch this space in 4 years time it will not have changed,who ever pays the most will get what they want from any government.

Posted by: Roderick V. Louis, (near) Vancouver, Canada
Interesting point you raise, I'm no expert, I think the words unhealthy, unwise, unviable or dangerous are fair, but not 'illegal'. If it were, in my view, the law would be an as*. Nations should surely be allowed to secede to the point of self-destruction (and often do), as it were, if that's what they want and should choose through due democratic process. Just as it's their choice to choose morons to rule them or to adopt flawed political systems or ideology as many nations do. Presumably then it's up to international law to pick up the pieces if it doesn't work out. Especially if the security of neighbouring states is threatened.

Total Abstainer :
Then why not just vote for some rank outsider as a protest vote? Frankly, to say that all politicos are bad is just not reality - nothing's perfect but there's good and bad in any area of life (including politics). It's the old adage about moving deck chairs on the Titanic - everyone's going down, but you want to stay afloat as long as possible, you choose the lesser of several evils to ensure you get rid of the worst ones.

[quote][bold]question[/bold] wrote: Just a quick question not trying to annoy anyone here just looking for an answer. How can a devolved government have any say over trident when it is a westminster issue? in fact defence is all a westminster issue. The fact that the Scottish Parliament may say we dont want it. Wont affect much at all, will it? And if a referendum is held on idependence and independence takes place will trident not actually have been pretty much bought and paid for by then with all our money?? Not saying Im for or against, just want to know. [/quote] No, spot on so I assume you agree that we need to take command of these issues ourselves so that the Scottish people can determine their own needs regarding defence. If not, then the Scottish Parliament can represent the Scottish people's opinion and demonstrate their anger that decisions are undemocratically made above their heads and are forced by leaders in London to put up with an imoral instrument of absolute death and destruction. Although, it's not inconceivable that SNP could levy a tax on Trident, and from my interpretation, that would wholly possible. Regarding your final point about Trident being bought and paid for by independence then, not really, because Trident is a WMD that would have billions and billions of our tax revenue pumped into it for the next thirty or forty years. Thus the quicker we become independent then the quicker we can use that tax revenue to create better lives and for everyone in Scotland from the youngest child to the oldest citizen. I believe it is a moral imperative to become independent and one of the fortunate by-products would be such savings. Derick fae Yell, Cheers for those links, it was a great read. Paulo, It would be interesting if you could explain your theory of legitimacy of a Unionist coalition considering that four main parties competed in these elections on different manifesto pledges and ideologies and the SNP emerged as biggest party in Holyrood and the largest share of the popular vote. Moreover, bearing in mind, this was not a referendum on the Union and so all sorts of factors came into play and it was Labour who perverted this election into being a direct decision on the state of the Union. Derrick fae Yell, Cheers for the links to the news sites around the world. Every single one was a great read and I'm proud the Scottish people demonstrated they do not supported a morally corrupt Labour party.

question wrote:
Just a quick question not trying to annoy anyone here just looking for an answer. How can a devolved government have any say over trident when it is a westminster issue? in fact defence is all a westminster issue. The fact that the Scottish Parliament may say we dont want it. Wont affect much at all, will it? And if a referendum is held on idependence and independence takes place will trident not actually have been pretty much bought and paid for by then with all our money?? Not saying Im for or against, just want to know.

No, spot on so I assume you agree that we need to take command of these issues ourselves so that the Scottish people can determine their own needs regarding defence. If not, then the Scottish Parliament can represent the Scottish people's opinion and demonstrate their anger that decisions are undemocratically made above their heads and are forced by leaders in London to put up with an imoral instrument of absolute death and destruction. Although, it's not inconceivable that SNP could levy a tax on Trident, and from my interpretation, that would wholly possible.
Regarding your final point about Trident being bought and paid for by independence then, not really, because Trident is a WMD that would have billions and billions of our tax revenue pumped into it for the next thirty or forty years. Thus the quicker we become independent then the quicker we can use that tax revenue to create better lives and for everyone in Scotland from the youngest child to the oldest citizen. I believe it is a moral imperative to become independent and one of the fortunate by-products would be such savings.

Derick fae Yell,
Cheers for those links, it was a great read.

Paulo,
It would be interesting if you could explain your theory of legitimacy of a Unionist coalition considering that four main parties competed in these elections on different manifesto pledges and ideologies and the SNP emerged as biggest party in Holyrood and the largest share of the popular vote. Moreover, bearing in mind, this was not a referendum on the Union and so all sorts of factors came into play and it was Labour who perverted this election into being a direct decision on the state of the Union.

Derrick fae Yell,
Cheers for the links to the news sites around the world. Every single one was a great read and I'm proud the Scottish people demonstrated they do not supported a morally corrupt Labour party.

[quote][bold]Alec MacAllister[/bold] wrote: Congratulations to Scotlands folk for sqeezing out change from under the weight of the propoganda! We have to concede, however, that the labour vote did NOT actually collapse - and in the face of the level of dissent expressed before the elections, this is actually quite worrying. How could the voting figures stay so stable for Labour? I congratulate Salmond for finally getting his shot at national leadership. But what a job he has now, with no clear majority (a majority I felt he deserved to get). If there really are numpties in at Holyrood, I predict that they'll have a field day tearing up Nationalist policy for the next few years - just for spite, if nothing else![/quote] Attempted election rigging plain and simple. Unfortunately for Labour it went horribly wrong when (unlike for Bush in Florida) the decisive recount was conducted properly. Even the Labour MSPs who did get elected, the diatribe in some of their acceptance speeches was borderline fascist. Bill Butler's behaviour after winning Anniesland was undescribably disgraceful. He is not fit to serve in the Parliament and neither is George Foulkes. If the Lib Dems or the Tories facilitate this shower of dross getting back into office I will have lost all faith in the democratic process. There is an informal and unspoken conspiracy at work to deny Scotland the right to choose or reject independence. I agree the SNP do not have a mandate for independence but the people of Scotland DO have the right to choose or reject it and the only way for that to happen is by plebiscite. The notion that only those who have voted for SNP favour independence is as ludicrous as suggesting that all who voted Labour support Trident and the Iraq war or all who voted Tory supported Thatcher's privatisation programmes and the closure of Ravenscraig. Alex Salmond need's to make as many friends as he can in Brussels and at the U.N. because his administration is going to be under constant bombardment from unscrupulous unionist propaganda and there is no depth to which the unionist will not plummet to discredit the SNP.

Alec MacAllister wrote:
Congratulations to Scotlands folk for sqeezing out change from under the weight of the propoganda! We have to concede, however, that the labour vote did NOT actually collapse - and in the face of the level of dissent expressed before the elections, this is actually quite worrying. How could the voting figures stay so stable for Labour? I congratulate Salmond for finally getting his shot at national leadership. But what a job he has now, with no clear majority (a majority I felt he deserved to get). If there really are numpties in at Holyrood, I predict that they'll have a field day tearing up Nationalist policy for the next few years - just for spite, if nothing else!

Attempted election rigging plain and simple. Unfortunately for Labour it went horribly wrong when (unlike for Bush in Florida) the decisive recount was conducted properly.

Even the Labour MSPs who did get elected, the diatribe in some of their acceptance speeches was borderline fascist. Bill Butler's behaviour after winning Anniesland was undescribably disgraceful. He is not fit to serve in the Parliament and neither is George Foulkes. If the Lib Dems or the Tories facilitate this shower of dross getting back into office I will have lost all faith in the democratic process.

There is an informal and unspoken conspiracy at work to deny Scotland the right to choose or reject independence. I agree the SNP do not have a mandate for independence but the people of Scotland DO have the right to choose or reject it and the only way for that to happen is by plebiscite. The notion that only those who have voted for SNP favour independence is as ludicrous as suggesting that all who voted Labour support Trident and the Iraq war or all who voted Tory supported Thatcher's privatisation programmes and the closure of Ravenscraig.

Alex Salmond need's to make as many friends as he can in Brussels and at the U.N. because his administration is going to be under constant bombardment from unscrupulous unionist propaganda and there is no depth to which the unionist will not plummet to discredit the SNP.

Just read the post I put up and noticed obvious schoolboy error,
Those links were such a great read Derick I had to thank you twice.

Malcolm wrote:
Paolo, Look at the results. The SNP were snapping at Labour heels all over Glasgow and Lanarkshire (the only parts of Scotland Labour now have any sort of support). The Labour majoritis were cut to about 1000 in seat where they had once had 70% of the vote. The 'old religion' is going the way of all old religions in an age of enlightment. It's a new time

Nice thesis, but badly flawed. With the exception of a few seats, the Labour vote held up surprisingly well. Most of the SNP's increase in the vote clearly came from the implosion of the SSP. Holding onto those Trotty protest votes in government is, I would imagine, likely to prove fairly difficult.

As for the assertion that Labour now only has support in Glasgow and Lanarkshire...either you haven't actually seen the election results, or your geography is fairly poor. The electoral map is still mostly red from the Clyde to the Forth, and south to the Borders.

Paulo wrote:
Malcolm, I agree with the cuts in majorities but they didn't take the seats. Labour , despite everything, have only lost 4 seats. I expect a second vote, the unionist parties owe this to the 66% of voters who do not want to go down the nationalist road.

# Paulo - take a look at the facts. Only lost 4!; but that was on top of the 6 they lost last time out, an a' they ithers were up for grabs!!!
SNP has shows a solid advance against the odds and against the MSM misrepresentations and it appears that the people of Scotland want to see a real change.

1999 SNP 35 Lab 56 LD 17 Con 18 Others 3
2003 SNP 27 Lab 50 LD 17 Con 18 Others 17
2007 SNP 47 Lab 46 LD 16 Con 17 Others 3

An Jack McConnel, ye can tak yer fiicken trident awa wi ye when ye leave.

LibDems - no coalition with SNP - because of the referendum policy
LibDems - happy to remain in bed with Labour -policies which include renewal of Trident, continue war in Iraq etc.

Stephen spouting forth on morality he is a bigger joke than Jack and very nearly lost his seat to the SNP.

So all th ex pats who love the result, when are you coming home? Well done SNP.

When will you come home and pay your taxes like the rest of us?

When will you come home and make our country better.

I find it sad you are all for it now but choose to live somewhere else. By all means live somewhere else, but please don't give us the ex pat clap trap that goes along with.

SNP got there without you and don't need any plaudits from distant lands.

Cato - This crap about ex-SSP voters automatically switching to SNP doesn't bear up under analysis.

Look at Glasgow Pollok - SSP vote in 2003 was 27.9%. The SNP vote this time jumped 12.1%, while Labour's went up 10.4%. And if you look at the council results, the majority of SSP/Solidarity 2nd & 3rd preferences went to parties other than the SNP. This Labour line will not wash.

And can I just say I hope Pauline McNeil, Bill Butler and Margaret Curran will be apologising for their anti-SNP smears at the Glasgow count. A trio of bad losers.

Cato wrote:

Malcolm wrote: Paolo, Look at the results. The SNP were snapping at Labour heels all over Glasgow and Lanarkshire (the only parts of Scotland Labour now have any sort of support). The Labour majoritis were cut to about 1000 in seat where they had once had 70% of the vote. The 'old religion' is going the way of all old religions in an age of enlightment. It's a new time
Nice thesis, but badly flawed. With the exception of a few seats, the Labour vote held up surprisingly well. Most of the SNP's increase in the vote clearly came from the implosion of the SSP. Holding onto those Trotty protest votes in government is, I would imagine, likely to prove fairly difficult. As for the assertion that Labour now only has support in Glasgow and Lanarkshire...either you haven't actually seen the election results, or your geography is fairly poor. The electoral map is still mostly red from the Clyde to the Forth, and south to the Borders.

Looking at the map its hillbillys to the north and civilisation to the south.

John wrote:
So all th ex pats who love the result, when are you coming home? Well done SNP. When will you come home and pay your taxes like the rest of us? When will you come home and make our country better. I find it sad you are all for it now but choose to live somewhere else. By all means live somewhere else, but please don't give us the ex pat clap trap that goes along with. SNP got there without you and don't need any plaudits from distant lands.

John my dear....the labour government drove us out and the labour government kept us out.
And for your information I made my monies donation to the SNP party!
My children still live in Scotland and they made their donation by voting SNP.
If you want to insult your fellow Scots fine but, make sure you know who supported the SNP and who didn't first!

Jan wrote:

John wrote: So all th ex pats who love the result, when are you coming home? Well done SNP. When will you come home and pay your taxes like the rest of us? When will you come home and make our country better. I find it sad you are all for it now but choose to live somewhere else. By all means live somewhere else, but please don't give us the ex pat clap trap that goes along with. SNP got there without you and don't need any plaudits from distant lands.
John my dear....the labour government drove us out and the labour government kept us out. And for your information I made my monies donation to the SNP party! My children still live in Scotland and they made their donation by voting SNP. If you want to insult your fellow Scots fine but, make sure you know who supported the SNP and who didn't first!

Nothing new hear we will come home so long as we do not have to pay keep crying into you American whisky.

John wrote:
So all th ex pats who love the result, when are you coming home? Well done SNP. When will you come home and pay your taxes like the rest of us? When will you come home and make our country better. I find it sad you are all for it now but choose to live somewhere else. By all means live somewhere else, but please don't give us the ex pat clap trap that goes along with. SNP got there without you and don't need any plaudits from distant lands.

Hi John. At the moment I am an ex-pat and couldn't be happier with the result. I did help the SNP as I had a proxy vote, so don't say they got there without us. I have been voting SNP for 37 years! Regarding taxes and other stuff, I pay all taxes on my pension & savings in the UK! It's an anomaly in Spain where they don't count municipal workers' pensions and civil sevice pensions when I fill in my Spanish tax returns. They do of course count the interest I earn on my pittance savings, so I'm taxed twice. Hope your question is answered.

John wrote:
So all th ex pats who love the result, when are you coming home? Well done SNP. When will you come home and pay your taxes like the rest of us? When will you come home and make our country better. I find it sad you are all for it now but choose to live somewhere else. By all means live somewhere else, but please don't give us the ex pat clap trap that goes along with. SNP got there without you and don't need any plaudits from distant lands.

James Bond, 007, licensed to kill in distant lands!

Was your school seriously overcrowded?

A marvelous result for Scotland. At last a chance to have a debate on the future of Scotland free from the control of the Labour lackies of Brown and Blair. Make no mistake that is all that Jack McConnell is and it is now only a matter of time before he is side lined by his "friends" at Holyrood. Who will be the the message bearer? who else but the Mickey Mouse of Scottish politics Tom McCabe a man who has left a legacy of mediocrity in South Lanarkshire.

Stop the world - we wanna get on...

Well done the SNP. The current situation the party now faces with regard to forming a coalition and carrying out out their pledge for a referendum could have been avoided if the only other pro-independance party, namely the Scottish Socialist Party, had been represented in the Scottish Parliament.

If SNP voters had given the SSP their list vote in areas where it would have made a difference, they would be less likely to have this problem.

Roving Reporter wrote:

Jan wrote:
John wrote: So all th ex pats who love the result, when are you coming home? Well done SNP. When will you come home and pay your taxes like the rest of us? When will you come home and make our country better. I find it sad you are all for it now but choose to live somewhere else. By all means live somewhere else, but please don\'t give us the ex pat clap trap that goes along with. SNP got there without you and don\'t need any plaudits from distant lands.
John my dear....the labour government drove us out and the labour government kept us out. And for your information I made my monies donation to the SNP party! My children still live in Scotland and they made their donation by voting SNP. If you want to insult your fellow Scots fine but, make sure you know who supported the SNP and who didn\'t first!
Nothing new hear we will come home so long as we do not have to pay keep crying into you American whisky.

Obviously not Scottish are you Roving; your spelling is atrocious?
Try using your spell checker; that way, you can insult with meaning!

Congratulations to the people of Scotland. I have waited decades for this day. You folks are as good as anyone else in the world and deserve to be governed from your own country. Maybe the S.N.P. can get back the six thousand square miles of ocean that the English stole from you recently.
Anyway I am off to drink a toast to Scotland., with a good glass of scotch

John wrote:
So all th ex pats who love the result, when are you coming home? Well done SNP. When will you come home and pay your taxes like the rest of us? When will you come home and make our country better. I find it sad you are all for it now but choose to live somewhere else. By all means live somewhere else, but please don't give us the ex pat clap trap that goes along with. SNP got there without you and don't need any plaudits from distant lands.

Aberdeen is an oil capital and has provided a good living for myself and many other Scots and other nationalities. A victim of our own success, we North Sea oil men are in demand worldwide. An SNP member, I am abroad temporarily, but will return with my oil riches to Scotland, when no doubt the tax man will have his share. Don't be so blinkered, John, the world is a big place now.
www.snp.org - sign up now!

John L wrote:
Well done the SNP. The current situation the party now faces with regard to forming a coalition and carrying out out their pledge for a referendum could have been avoided if the only other pro-independance party, namely the Scottish Socialist Party, had been represented in the Scottish Parliament. If SNP voters had given the SSP their list vote in areas where it would have made a difference, they would be less likely to have this problem.

The SSP are a discredited party and a shadow of what they were with Tommy Sheridan as their Leader. If you don't believe that then look at the Glasgow list votes. Solidarity polled much higher than the SSP. Even the BNP got more votes than the SSP - that is not a good outcome for them and I thin they will soon fade out.

Does anyone in the London Media yet realise that Gordon Broon's seat in Kircaldy is now highly marginal. With a bit of effort and a first rate candidate the SNP should be able to unseat the the 'Sitting Prime Meenister' of the United Kindom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland without too much trouble.

[quote][bold]Teureg[/bold] wrote: [quote][bold]John[/bold] wrote: So all th ex pats who love the result, when are you coming home? Well done SNP. When will you come home and pay your taxes like the rest of us? When will you come home and make our country better. I find it sad you are all for it now but choose to live somewhere else. By all means live somewhere else, but please don't give us the ex pat clap trap that goes along with. SNP got there without you and don't need any plaudits from distant lands. [/quote] Aberdeen is an oil capital and has provided a good living for myself and many other Scots and other nationalities. A victim of our own success, we North Sea oil men are in demand worldwide. An SNP member, I am abroad temporarily, but will return with my oil riches to Scotland, when no doubt the tax man will have his share. Don't be so blinkered, John, the world is a big place now. www.snp.org - sign up now![/quote] By all means chase the money, please spare us from the ex pat clap trap though. My comments were aimed as those who chosse to reside outside Scotland because it is warmer, better standard of living etc. call it what you want. But as a proffesional person myself , I could work anywhere in the world, but can also work in Scotland, I might earn a bit less, not a lo less, but I spend my money here and keep good Scottish firms in business. Like I say, by all means work elsewhere and chase the money, but we don't need the ex pat clap trap.

Teureg wrote:

John wrote: So all th ex pats who love the result, when are you coming home? Well done SNP. When will you come home and pay your taxes like the rest of us? When will you come home and make our country better. I find it sad you are all for it now but choose to live somewhere else. By all means live somewhere else, but please don't give us the ex pat clap trap that goes along with. SNP got there without you and don't need any plaudits from distant lands.
Aberdeen is an oil capital and has provided a good living for myself and many other Scots and other nationalities. A victim of our own success, we North Sea oil men are in demand worldwide. An SNP member, I am abroad temporarily, but will return with my oil riches to Scotland, when no doubt the tax man will have his share. Don't be so blinkered, John, the world is a big place now. www.snp.org - sign up now!

By all means chase the money, please spare us from the ex pat clap trap though.

My comments were aimed as those who chosse to reside outside Scotland because it is warmer, better standard of living etc. call it what you want. But as a proffesional person myself , I could work anywhere in the world, but can also work in Scotland, I might earn a bit less, not a lo less, but I spend my money here and keep good Scottish firms in business.

Like I say, by all means work elsewhere and chase the money, but we don't need the ex pat clap trap.

[quote][bold]David el escoc�s[/bold] wrote: [quote][bold]John[/bold] wrote: So all th ex pats who love the result, when are you coming home? Well done SNP. When will you come home and pay your taxes like the rest of us? When will you come home and make our country better. I find it sad you are all for it now but choose to live somewhere else. By all means live somewhere else, but please don\'t give us the ex pat clap trap that goes along with. SNP got there without you and don\'t need any plaudits from distant lands. [/quote] Hi John. At the moment I am an ex-pat and couldn\'t be happier with the result. I did help the SNP as I had a proxy vote, so don\'t say they got there without us. I have been voting SNP for 37 years! Regarding taxes and other stuff, I pay all taxes on my pension & savings in the UK! It\'s an anomaly in Spain where they don\'t count municipal workers\' pensions and civil sevice pensions when I fill in my Spanish tax returns. They do of course count the interest I earn on my pittance savings, so I\'m taxed twice. Hope your question is answered.[/quote] Enjoy your sangria, if you love us all that much, why don't you come home, it is even sunny here now! You can rearrange......want cake your it and eat.

David el escoc�s wrote:

John wrote: So all th ex pats who love the result, when are you coming home? Well done SNP. When will you come home and pay your taxes like the rest of us? When will you come home and make our country better. I find it sad you are all for it now but choose to live somewhere else. By all means live somewhere else, but please don\'t give us the ex pat clap trap that goes along with. SNP got there without you and don\'t need any plaudits from distant lands.
Hi John. At the moment I am an ex-pat and couldn\'t be happier with the result. I did help the SNP as I had a proxy vote, so don\'t say they got there without us. I have been voting SNP for 37 years! Regarding taxes and other stuff, I pay all taxes on my pension & savings in the UK! It\'s an anomaly in Spain where they don\'t count municipal workers\' pensions and civil sevice pensions when I fill in my Spanish tax returns. They do of course count the interest I earn on my pittance savings, so I\'m taxed twice. Hope your question is answered.

Enjoy your sangria, if you love us all that much, why don't you come home, it is even sunny here now!

You can rearrange......want cake your it and eat.

[quote][bold]Jan[/bold] wrote: [quote][bold]John[/bold] wrote: So all th ex pats who love the result, when are you coming home? Well done SNP. When will you come home and pay your taxes like the rest of us? When will you come home and make our country better. I find it sad you are all for it now but choose to live somewhere else. By all means live somewhere else, but please don't give us the ex pat clap trap that goes along with. SNP got there without you and don't need any plaudits from distant lands. [/quote] John my dear....the labour government drove us out and the labour government kept us out. And for your information I made my monies donation to the SNP party! My children still live in Scotland and they made their donation by voting SNP. If you want to insult your fellow Scots fine but, make sure you know who supported the SNP and who didn't first![/quote] Are you having a laugh, or were you some of those people who the government broke into your home and sent you abroad at gunpoint? They "drove you out"? Gimmee a break. They didn't drive me out, when they broke in I shouted BOOOOOO and they ran away! p.s. your a fake on another count, I wouldn't go abroad if my kids were here, although on the +ve side, you won't need to give your kids or grand kids any of your time, you can spend all your time telling the yanks, who invaded Iraq along with disgraced PM, how wonderful we all are.

Jan wrote:

John wrote: So all th ex pats who love the result, when are you coming home? Well done SNP. When will you come home and pay your taxes like the rest of us? When will you come home and make our country better. I find it sad you are all for it now but choose to live somewhere else. By all means live somewhere else, but please don't give us the ex pat clap trap that goes along with. SNP got there without you and don't need any plaudits from distant lands.
John my dear....the labour government drove us out and the labour government kept us out. And for your information I made my monies donation to the SNP party! My children still live in Scotland and they made their donation by voting SNP. If you want to insult your fellow Scots fine but, make sure you know who supported the SNP and who didn't first!

Are you having a laugh, or were you some of those people who the government broke into your home and sent you abroad at gunpoint?

They "drove you out"? Gimmee a break. They didn't drive me out, when they broke in I shouted BOOOOOO and they ran away!

p.s. your a fake on another count, I wouldn't go abroad if my kids were here, although on the +ve side, you won't need to give your kids or grand kids any of your time, you can spend all your time telling the yanks, who invaded Iraq along with disgraced PM, how wonderful we all are.

John from anywhere posts above

You should stop trying to bully people into no longer having opinions - wait...are you a Labour man by any chance John? Just wondering...did you run their campaign?

[quote][bold]Roving Reporter[/bold] wrote: [quote][bold]Jan[/bold] wrote: [quote][bold]John[/bold] wrote: So all th ex pats who love the result, when are you coming home? Well done SNP. When will you come home and pay your taxes like the rest of us? When will you come home and make our country better. I find it sad you are all for it now but choose to live somewhere else. By all means live somewhere else, but please don't give us the ex pat clap trap that goes along with. SNP got there without you and don't need any plaudits from distant lands. [/quote] John my dear....the labour government drove us out and the labour government kept us out. And for your information I made my monies donation to the SNP party! My children still live in Scotland and they made their donation by voting SNP. If you want to insult your fellow Scots fine but, make sure you know who supported the SNP and who didn't first![/quote] Nothing new hear we will come home so long as we do not have to pay keep crying into you American whisky.[/quote] You what? "hear"? Tell your teacher you need more study time. Come back when you can put a sentence together, it might take a few years but what the heck, we can wait as long as all the ex pats want.

Roving Reporter wrote:

Jan wrote:
John wrote: So all th ex pats who love the result, when are you coming home? Well done SNP. When will you come home and pay your taxes like the rest of us? When will you come home and make our country better. I find it sad you are all for it now but choose to live somewhere else. By all means live somewhere else, but please don't give us the ex pat clap trap that goes along with. SNP got there without you and don't need any plaudits from distant lands.
John my dear....the labour government drove us out and the labour government kept us out. And for your information I made my monies donation to the SNP party! My children still live in Scotland and they made their donation by voting SNP. If you want to insult your fellow Scots fine but, make sure you know who supported the SNP and who didn't first!
Nothing new hear we will come home so long as we do not have to pay keep crying into you American whisky.

You what? "hear"? Tell your teacher you need more study time. Come back when you can put a sentence together, it might take a few years but what the heck, we can wait as long as all the ex pats want.

GB wrote:
John from anywhere posts above You should stop trying to bully people into no longer having opinions - wait...are you a Labour man by any chance John? Just wondering...did you run their campaign?

GB, I am not stopping anyone from having opinions, I just don't understand all the ex pat clap trap singing the praises of our country when they decide to reside elsehwhere. That was thrust of my 1st post which upset the ex pats.

It is really easy to have an opinion about another government when they cannot have an impact on your way of life.

I'll treat your last comment with the contempt it deserves.

Have a nice night.

John? John? Anyone at home? You give Scotland a bad name. You'll never convince anyone to vote SNP (and I did) if you continue with your racist $hite. Get a life you sad little nobody. Your grammar is likewise pathetic. I'm sure you went to a good school. Was it approved?
Correction: Please put a full stop after the word "together." You then start the new sentence with a capital letter (that's the big one). I could correct your grammar all day, but I doubt you'd learn anything. Earlier you called yourself a proffessional (sic) man. If you were that bl00dy professional, you'd know how to spell you moron. Keep stacking the shelves you success story.

[quote][bold]Brian Blessed[/bold] wrote: Cato - This crap about ex-SSP voters automatically switching to SNP doesn\\\'t bear up under analysis. Look at Glasgow Pollok - SSP vote in 2003 was 27.9%. The SNP vote this time jumped 12.1%, while Labour\\\'s went up 10.4%. And if you look at the council results, the majority of SSP/Solidarity 2nd & 3rd preferences went to parties other than the SNP. This Labour line will not wash. And can I just say I hope Pauline McNeil, Bill Butler and Margaret Curran will be apologising for their anti-SNP smears at the Glasgow count. A trio of bad losers.[/quote] Bad losers? Er...Pauline, Bill and Margaret all won, mate. And if the SNP are annoyed at "smears" their supporters should behave themselves at counts, and not bray like animals. A classic case of not liking your own medicine. I wasn't suggesting that SSP supporters "automatically" switched; even Trots aren't automatons. But I don't think there's much doubt that a fair chunk of them did so. Where else would they have gone? Pollok's a fairly atypical example, given that Tommy had a very large personal vote, probably with a disproportionate number of votes would otherwise have gone to Labour, by SSP standards. But let's look at it. The SSP got 6,000 votes last time. Labour's vote was up by 1,000; the SNP by 2,000, the Lib Dems by 500, and total turnout was down by 2,000. It's not hard to see where the SSP vote went, and 2 to 1 it went to the SNP.

Brian Blessed wrote:
Cato - This crap about ex-SSP voters automatically switching to SNP doesn't bear up under analysis. Look at Glasgow Pollok - SSP vote in 2003 was 27.9%. The SNP vote this time jumped 12.1%, while Labour's went up 10.4%. And if you look at the council results, the majority of SSP/Solidarity 2nd & 3rd preferences went to parties other than the SNP. This Labour line will not wash. And can I just say I hope Pauline McNeil, Bill Butler and Margaret Curran will be apologising for their anti-SNP smears at the Glasgow count. A trio of bad losers.

Bad losers? Er...Pauline, Bill and Margaret all won, mate. And if the SNP are annoyed at "smears" their supporters should behave themselves at counts, and not bray like animals. A classic case of not liking your own medicine.

I wasn't suggesting that SSP supporters "automatically" switched; even Trots aren't automatons. But I don't think there's much doubt that a fair chunk of them did so. Where else would they have gone?

Pollok's a fairly atypical example, given that Tommy had a very large personal vote, probably with a disproportionate number of votes would otherwise have gone to Labour, by SSP standards. But let's look at it. The SSP got 6,000 votes last time. Labour's vote was up by 1,000; the SNP by 2,000, the Lib Dems by 500, and total turnout was down by 2,000. It's not hard to see where the SSP vote went, and 2 to 1 it went to the SNP.

Worrying about John wrote:
John? John? Anyone at home? You give Scotland a bad name. You'll never convince anyone to vote SNP (and I did) if you continue with your racist $hite. Get a life you sad little nobody. Your grammar is likewise pathetic. I'm sure you went to a good school. Was it approved? Correction: Please put a full stop after the word "together." You then start the new sentence with a capital letter (that's the big one). I could correct your grammar all day, but I doubt you'd learn anything. Earlier you called yourself a proffessional (sic) man. If you were that bl00dy professional, you'd know how to spell you moron. Keep stacking the shelves you success story.

is that your best shot, you need to try harder

John anywhere is out of order, and being silly. Can you leave the forum now that you've ranted lyrical John? We don't need any more of your trivial, negative arguments.

Cato, on the other hand, has perhaps inadvertently, owned up that Noo Labour has abandoned all pretence of support for the working man (O.K. Cato - or woman) in asserting that the SSP vote could never be transferred to Labour: "Where else would they have gone"...

Once the paint dries... you can get out of the corner Cato.

Don't worry, likewise, I'm treating your posts with the contempt they deserve and they deserve a fair bit of contempt if people want to come on here to make an opinion then they can - if you don't like that opinion then disagree with it but don't disagree from where someone is posting from for god's sake and don't bully people because they happen to live in a different country a lot of people grow up in different countries and raised by Scottish parents or they have Scottish grandparents and so become fascinated with their origins and that's a good thing if people want to leave Scotland for whatever reason but are still interested in Scottish politics then that is also a good thing and I'm glad that Scotland is such a great place that people keep up their interest and love for our country no matter where they end up in this little world - everyone's just trying to get along John plus, people have seen Scottish films and read Scottish books and seen us play football and met our tartan army - or whatever - and they become interested in our big country and that is a good thing so disagree with people's opinions all day because that's the great thing about these boards but just leave the issue of where people leave a message from alone because it may put people off leaving a message never mind give people the wrong impression of our country. as I said - everyone's just trying to get along.

Don't worry, likewise, I'm treating your posts with the contempt they deserve and they deserve a fair bit of contempt

if people want to come on here to make an opinion then they can - if you don't like that opinion then disagree with it but don't disagree from where someone is posting from for god's sake and don't bully people because they happen to live in a different country

a lot of people grow up in different countries and raised by Scottish parents or they have Scottish grandparents and so become fascinated with their origins and that's a good thing

if people want to leave Scotland for whatever reason but are still interested in Scottish politics then that is also a good thing and I'm glad that Scotland is such a great place that people keep up their interest and love for our country no matter where they end up in this little world - everyone's just trying to get along John

plus, people have seen Scottish films and read Scottish books and seen us play football and met our tartan army - or whatever - and they become interested in our big country and that is a good thing

so disagree with people's opinions all day because that's the great thing about these boards but just leave the issue of where people leave a message from alone because it may put people off leaving a message never mind give people the wrong impression of our country.

as I said - everyone's just trying to get along.

BTW

to the guy who checks grammar then leave me alone please

I assure you I am far from being an accomplished writer of merit, as one can conclude from my posts, but I have a working and sufficient knowledge of English grammartical structure, of which, I choose not to employ on these boards for the sake of time. (hehehe) ;)

[quote][bold]Iain[/bold] wrote: [quote][bold]John L[/bold] wrote: Well done the SNP. The current situation the party now faces with regard to forming a coalition and carrying out out their pledge for a referendum could have been avoided if the only other pro-independance party, namely the Scottish Socialist Party, had been represented in the Scottish Parliament. If SNP voters had given the SSP their list vote in areas where it would have made a difference, they would be less likely to have this problem.[/quote] The SSP are a discredited party and a shadow of what they were with Tommy Sheridan as their Leader. If you don't believe that then look at the Glasgow list votes. Solidarity polled much higher than the SSP. Even the BNP got more votes than the SSP - that is not a good outcome for them and I thin they will soon fade out.[/quote] Neither the SSP nor socialism is discredited. It is Tommy Sheridan who is discredited by showing that he puts image before principles when he is prepared to lie about his ex-colleagues in the SSP in order to win his libel case over a tabloid which published details of his sordid sex life. His new party Solidarity will be discredited when he goes to jail for perjury. The SNP and the Scottish public can blame Tommy Sheridan for making a referendum nearly impossible by reducing the socialist vote in Scotland and preventing the re-election of pro-independence socialist MSPs.

Iain wrote:

John L wrote: Well done the SNP. The current situation the party now faces with regard to forming a coalition and carrying out out their pledge for a referendum could have been avoided if the only other pro-independance party, namely the Scottish Socialist Party, had been represented in the Scottish Parliament. If SNP voters had given the SSP their list vote in areas where it would have made a difference, they would be less likely to have this problem.
The SSP are a discredited party and a shadow of what they were with Tommy Sheridan as their Leader. If you don't believe that then look at the Glasgow list votes. Solidarity polled much higher than the SSP. Even the BNP got more votes than the SSP - that is not a good outcome for them and I thin they will soon fade out.

Neither the SSP nor socialism is discredited. It is Tommy Sheridan who is discredited by showing that he puts image before principles when he is prepared to lie about his ex-colleagues in the SSP in order to win his libel case over a tabloid which published details of his sordid sex life. His new party Solidarity will be discredited when he goes to jail for perjury.

The SNP and the Scottish public can blame Tommy Sheridan for making a referendum nearly impossible by reducing the socialist vote in Scotland and preventing the re-election of pro-independence socialist MSPs.

I can't help wondering if Hazel Blears has ever broken into a pensioner's flat and stolen a gipry cream.

and finally well done S N P. ......................................................................oh and to Jack SH*T listen to me can you hear me?.....
gordon broon . tony blair david murray ,muriel gray alex mcliesh
robbie hagrid coltraine .. sir ex lax ferguson and michelle moan ....
your boys took a hell of a pounding out there tonight .....................
if what you said during the election campaign is true ... that you would leave ..................GOODBYE

[quote][bold]John[/bold] wrote: [quote][bold]Worrying about John[/bold] wrote: John? John? Anyone at home? You give Scotland a bad name. You\'ll never convince anyone to vote SNP (and I did) if you continue with your racist $hite. Get a life you sad little nobody. Your grammar is likewise pathetic. I\'m sure you went to a good school. Was it approved? Correction: Please put a full stop after the word \"together.\" You then start the new sentence with a capital letter (that\'s the big one). I could correct your grammar all day, but I doubt you\'d learn anything. Earlier you called yourself a proffessional (sic) man. If you were that bl00dy professional, you\'d know how to spell you moron. Keep stacking the shelves you success story.[/quote] is that your best shot, you need to try harder[/quote] OK...I'll try harder. Look man. We are all in this together. Whether a Scot lives abroad or not is neither here nor there. I'm sure you are aware that one of the best exports Scotland has is its talent. I'm a bit bushed cutting & pasting, but below you will see a list of famous "ex-pat" Scots. Did you know that some people think an ex-pat is someone who used to be from a particular country, and is no more. It is not. It come from the latin "ex patria" meaning form the Country. To call someone a Scottish ex-pat simply means that the person comes from Scotland, so it's a bit naive to use this as a term of abuse. Some ex-pats are abroad because that is where their work sends them. Do you blame them? Famous ex-pat Scots are below. This is a very small list. Apologies to all ex-pats whose names aren't on the list. Alexander Graham Bell (1847 - 1922) : Telephone etc Sir Thomas MacDougall Brisbane (1773 - 1860): Govenor of New South Wales in 1821, and gave his name to the city of Brisbane. He also built an observatory at Parramatta near Sydney and with the help of two astronomers he brought with him, mapped and catalogued more than 7000 stars of the Southern Hemisphere. George Brown (1818 - 1880): Founding father of Canada James Bruce (1730 - 1794): discovered the source of the Abbai or Blue Nile Andrew Carnegie (1835 - 1918): Need I say more? Donald Caskie (1902 - 1983) The Tartan Pimpernell. Minister of the Scot's Kirk in Paris. During World War II he moved to Marseille where he helped British servicemen escape the Nazis to freedom. Robert Dinwiddie (1693 - 1770) Born near Glasgow, he became the Lieutenant-Governor of Virginia. Sir Sandford Fleming (1827 - 1915): Canadian railway engineer, born in Kirkcaldy. Thomas Blake Glover (1838 - 1911) Born in Aberdeenshire, Glover was awarded the highest "Order of the Rising Sun" for his contribution to modernising Japan, through industrialisation and smuggling Japanese students abroad to gain a better education. John Paul Jones (1747 - 1792) Born in Dumfriesshire, he joined the navy and spent time in Russia and France during the French Revolution. Most notably he established the U.S. Navy. David Livingstone (1813 - 1873): You must have heard of him! Sir John Alexander MacDonald (1815 - 1891) First Prime Minister of Canada. Born in Glasgow, died in Ottawa, Canada. He was central to bringing about the confederation of Canada (1867) and the construction of the Canadian Pacific Railway. Sir Alexander Mackenzie (1764 - 1820) Born on the Isle of Lewis. Emigrated to Cananda and worked as a fur trader. The first to journey down the river which bears his name. John Muir (1834 - 1914) Naturalist and Conservationist, born in Dunbar. Founder of the U.S. National Park system and regarded as the father of the modern environmental movement. Sir Roderick Impey Murchison (1792 - 1871) Geologist and Geographer. Born in Tarradale. In 1835 he established the Silurian geological system, and with Sedgwick, the Devonian system. Led a survey of the Russian Empire (1840-1845) and predicted the discovery of gold in Australia. A founder of the Royal Geological Society of London. The Murchison Falls (Uganda) and the Murchison River (Australia) are named after him. Robert Dale Owen (1801 - 1877) Scottish-born U.S. social reformer and anti-slavery campainer. Allan Pinkerton (1819 - 1884) U.S. detective, born in the Gorbals, Glasgow. Pinkerton left Scotland hurriedly in 1842, following his involvement in left-wing protests. In 1852, he formed the first detective agency, in Chicago, which solved a series of train robberies. In 1861, he foiled an assassination plot in Baltimore, while guarding Abraham Lincoln on the way to his inauguration. He was the Head of the U.S. Secret Service 1861 - 1862. Sir William Ramsay (1852 - 1916) Chemist. Ramsay was born in Glasgow and became Professor of Chemistry at Bristol and then University College, London. Chiefly responsible for the discovery of the rare gases Helium, Argon, Neon, Krypton and Xenon. Also worked in radio-activity. He spread scientific interest to other parts of the British Empire, including setting up the Indian Institute for Science at Bangalore. Mary Slessor (1848 - 1915) A Dundee mill girl who became a great missionary in West Africa. Called 'Great Mother' by Nigerians, she provided healthcare and education and stamped out barbaric tribal practices such as human sacrifice. John Witherspoon (1723 - 1794) Clergyman born in Gifford, East Lothian. He became a Minister at Beith, then Paisley. In 1768, he emigrated to U.S.A. to become President of Princeton University (then the College of New Jersey), where he taught and influenced many future leaders of the US. He also helped frame the US Declaration of Independence and was one of the signatories. Witherspoon was also the one who coined the word "Americanism". When you slag off ex-pats, you slag off these people. Give it a rest man!

John wrote:

Worrying about John wrote: John? John? Anyone at home? You give Scotland a bad name. You\'ll never convince anyone to vote SNP (and I did) if you continue with your racist $hite. Get a life you sad little nobody. Your grammar is likewise pathetic. I\'m sure you went to a good school. Was it approved? Correction: Please put a full stop after the word \"together.\" You then start the new sentence with a capital letter (that\'s the big one). I could correct your grammar all day, but I doubt you\'d learn anything. Earlier you called yourself a proffessional (sic) man. If you were that bl00dy professional, you\'d know how to spell you moron. Keep stacking the shelves you success story.
is that your best shot, you need to try harder

OK...I'll try harder. Look man. We are all in this together. Whether a Scot lives abroad or not is neither here nor there. I'm sure you are aware that one of the best exports Scotland has is its talent. I'm a bit bushed cutting & pasting, but below you will see a list of famous "ex-pat" Scots. Did you know that some people think an ex-pat is someone who used to be from a particular country, and is no more. It is not. It come from the latin "ex patria" meaning form the Country. To call someone a Scottish ex-pat simply means that the person comes from Scotland, so it's a bit naive to use this as a term of abuse. Some ex-pats are abroad because that is where their work sends them. Do you blame them? Famous ex-pat Scots are below. This is a very small list. Apologies to all ex-pats whose names aren't on the list.

Alexander Graham Bell (1847 - 1922) : Telephone etc

Sir Thomas MacDougall Brisbane (1773 - 1860): Govenor of New South Wales in 1821, and gave his name to the city of Brisbane. He also built an observatory at Parramatta near Sydney and with the help of two astronomers he brought with him, mapped and catalogued more than 7000 stars of the Southern Hemisphere.

George Brown (1818 - 1880): Founding father of Canada

James Bruce (1730 - 1794): discovered the source of the Abbai or Blue Nile

Andrew Carnegie (1835 - 1918): Need I say more?

Donald Caskie (1902 - 1983)
The Tartan Pimpernell. Minister of the Scot's Kirk in Paris. During World War II he moved to Marseille where he helped British servicemen escape the Nazis to freedom.

Robert Dinwiddie (1693 - 1770)
Born near Glasgow, he became the Lieutenant-Governor of Virginia.

Sir Sandford Fleming (1827 - 1915): Canadian railway engineer, born in Kirkcaldy.

Thomas Blake Glover (1838 - 1911)
Born in Aberdeenshire, Glover was awarded the highest "Order of the Rising Sun" for his contribution to modernising Japan, through industrialisation and smuggling Japanese students abroad to gain a better education.

John Paul Jones (1747 - 1792)
Born in Dumfriesshire, he joined the navy and spent time in Russia and France during the French Revolution. Most notably he established the U.S. Navy.

David Livingstone (1813 - 1873): You must have heard of him!

Sir John Alexander MacDonald (1815 - 1891)
First Prime Minister of Canada. Born in Glasgow, died in Ottawa, Canada. He was central to bringing about the confederation of Canada (1867) and the construction of the Canadian Pacific Railway.

Sir Alexander Mackenzie (1764 - 1820)
Born on the Isle of Lewis. Emigrated to Cananda and worked as a fur trader. The first to journey down the river which bears his name.

John Muir (1834 - 1914)
Naturalist and Conservationist, born in Dunbar. Founder of the U.S. National Park system and regarded as the father of the modern environmental movement.

Sir Roderick Impey Murchison (1792 - 1871)
Geologist and Geographer. Born in Tarradale. In 1835 he established the Silurian geological system, and with Sedgwick, the Devonian system. Led a survey of the Russian Empire (1840-1845) and predicted the discovery of gold in Australia. A founder of the Royal Geological Society of London. The Murchison Falls (Uganda) and the Murchison River (Australia) are named after him.

Robert Dale Owen (1801 - 1877)
Scottish-born U.S. social reformer and anti-slavery campainer.

Allan Pinkerton (1819 - 1884)
U.S. detective, born in the Gorbals, Glasgow. Pinkerton left Scotland hurriedly in 1842, following his involvement in left-wing protests. In 1852, he formed the first detective agency, in Chicago, which solved a series of train robberies. In 1861, he foiled an assassination plot in Baltimore, while guarding Abraham Lincoln on the way to his inauguration. He was the Head of the U.S. Secret Service 1861 - 1862.

Sir William Ramsay (1852 - 1916)
Chemist. Ramsay was born in Glasgow and became Professor of Chemistry at Bristol and then University College, London. Chiefly responsible for the discovery of the rare gases Helium, Argon, Neon, Krypton and Xenon. Also worked in radio-activity. He spread scientific interest to other parts of the British Empire, including setting up the Indian Institute for Science at Bangalore.

Mary Slessor (1848 - 1915)
A Dundee mill girl who became a great missionary in West Africa. Called 'Great Mother' by Nigerians, she provided healthcare and education and stamped out barbaric tribal practices such as human sacrifice.

John Witherspoon (1723 - 1794)
Clergyman born in Gifford, East Lothian. He became a Minister at Beith, then Paisley. In 1768, he emigrated to U.S.A. to become President of Princeton University (then the College of New Jersey), where he taught and influenced many future leaders of the US. He also helped frame the US Declaration of Independence and was one of the signatories. Witherspoon was also the one who coined the word "Americanism".

When you slag off ex-pats, you slag off these people. Give it a rest man!

So Sir William Ramsey discovered Krypton? Not kryptonite I hope......powers fading.... slipping away...a curse on Si William Ramsey.

the results of this election suggest that the voters were more voting against Labour rather than for the SNP. furthermore the division of the seats will only lead to a situation where to be able to govern the (honourable ?) members will find it necessary to make "deals" and compromise their principles (if any). Westminister will be in a strong position to "call the tune" as Holyrood flounders in the mire.

well done SNP its good to see the back of labour and alastair morrison out of the western isles (thanks for nothing)

spens wrote:
the results of this election suggest that the voters were more voting against Labour rather than for the SNP. furthermore the division of the seats will only lead to a situation where to be able to govern the (honourable ?) members will find it necessary to make "deals" and compromise their principles (if any). Westminister will be in a strong position to "call the tune" as Holyrood flounders in the mire.

Oh no spens frae Canada! This means John, anywhere will come back spouting mair pis#. I'm off! See you all in the Sunday Herald tomorrow. It's whaur it's all aboot.

[quote][bold]Worrying about John[/bold] wrote: [quote][bold]John[/bold] wrote: [quote][bold]Worrying about John[/bold] wrote: John? John? Anyone at home? You give Scotland a bad name. You\'ll never convince anyone to vote SNP (and I did) if you continue with your racist $hite. Get a life you sad little nobody. Your grammar is likewise pathetic. I\'m sure you went to a good school. Was it approved? Correction: Please put a full stop after the word \"together.\" You then start the new sentence with a capital letter (that\'s the big one). I could correct your grammar all day, but I doubt you\'d learn anything. Earlier you called yourself a proffessional (sic) man. If you were that bl00dy professional, you\'d know how to spell you moron. Keep stacking the shelves you success story.[/quote] is that your best shot, you need to try harder[/quote] OK...I'll try harder. Look man. We are all in this together. Whether a Scot lives abroad or not is neither here nor there. I'm sure you are aware that one of the best exports Scotland has is its talent. I'm a bit bushed cutting & pasting, but below you will see a list of famous "ex-pat" Scots. Did you know that some people think an ex-pat is someone who used to be from a particular country, and is no more. It is not. It come from the latin "ex patria" meaning form the Country. To call someone a Scottish ex-pat simply means that the person comes from Scotland, so it's a bit naive to use this as a term of abuse. Some ex-pats are abroad because that is where their work sends them. Do you blame them? Famous ex-pat Scots are below. This is a very small list. Apologies to all ex-pats whose names aren't on the list. Alexander Graham Bell (1847 - 1922) : Telephone etc Sir Thomas MacDougall Brisbane (1773 - 1860): Govenor of New South Wales in 1821, and gave his name to the city of Brisbane. He also built an observatory at Parramatta near Sydney and with the help of two astronomers he brought with him, mapped and catalogued more than 7000 stars of the Southern Hemisphere. George Brown (1818 - 1880): Founding father of Canada James Bruce (1730 - 1794): discovered the source of the Abbai or Blue Nile Andrew Carnegie (1835 - 1918): Need I say more? Donald Caskie (1902 - 1983) The Tartan Pimpernell. Minister of the Scot's Kirk in Paris. During World War II he moved to Marseille where he helped British servicemen escape the Nazis to freedom. Robert Dinwiddie (1693 - 1770) Born near Glasgow, he became the Lieutenant-Governor of Virginia. Sir Sandford Fleming (1827 - 1915): Canadian railway engineer, born in Kirkcaldy. Thomas Blake Glover (1838 - 1911) Born in Aberdeenshire, Glover was awarded the highest "Order of the Rising Sun" for his contribution to modernising Japan, through industrialisation and smuggling Japanese students abroad to gain a better education. John Paul Jones (1747 - 1792) Born in Dumfriesshire, he joined the navy and spent time in Russia and France during the French Revolution. Most notably he established the U.S. Navy. David Livingstone (1813 - 1873): You must have heard of him! Sir John Alexander MacDonald (1815 - 1891) First Prime Minister of Canada. Born in Glasgow, died in Ottawa, Canada. He was central to bringing about the confederation of Canada (1867) and the construction of the Canadian Pacific Railway. Sir Alexander Mackenzie (1764 - 1820) Born on the Isle of Lewis. Emigrated to Cananda and worked as a fur trader. The first to journey down the river which bears his name. John Muir (1834 - 1914) Naturalist and Conservationist, born in Dunbar. Founder of the U.S. National Park system and regarded as the father of the modern environmental movement. Sir Roderick Impey Murchison (1792 - 1871) Geologist and Geographer. Born in Tarradale. In 1835 he established the Silurian geological system, and with Sedgwick, the Devonian system. Led a survey of the Russian Empire (1840-1845) and predicted the discovery of gold in Australia. A founder of the Royal Geological Society of London. The Murchison Falls (Uganda) and the Murchison River (Australia) are named after him. Robert Dale Owen (1801 - 1877) Scottish-born U.S. social reformer and anti-slavery campainer. Allan Pinkerton (1819 - 1884) U.S. detective, born in the Gorbals, Glasgow. Pinkerton left Scotland hurriedly in 1842, following his involvement in left-wing protests. In 1852, he formed the first detective agency, in Chicago, which solved a series of train robberies. In 1861, he foiled an assassination plot in Baltimore, while guarding Abraham Lincoln on the way to his inauguration. He was the Head of the U.S. Secret Service 1861 - 1862. Sir William Ramsay (1852 - 1916) Chemist. Ramsay was born in Glasgow and became Professor of Chemistry at Bristol and then University College, London. Chiefly responsible for the discovery of the rare gases Helium, Argon, Neon, Krypton and Xenon. Also worked in radio-activity. He spread scientific interest to other parts of the British Empire, including setting up the Indian Institute for Science at Bangalore. Mary Slessor (1848 - 1915) A Dundee mill girl who became a great missionary in West Africa. Called 'Great Mother' by Nigerians, she provided healthcare and education and stamped out barbaric tribal practices such as human sacrifice. John Witherspoon (1723 - 1794) Clergyman born in Gifford, East Lothian. He became a Minister at Beith, then Paisley. In 1768, he emigrated to U.S.A. to become President of Princeton University (then the College of New Jersey), where he taught and influenced many future leaders of the US. He also helped frame the US Declaration of Independence and was one of the signatories. Witherspoon was also the one who coined the word "Americanism". When you slag off ex-pats, you slag off these people. Give it a rest man! [/quote] nah, no use, need to try real hard, not some copy/paste routine, anyone can do that. Give me some of your own stuff, if that is at all possible?

Worrying about John wrote:

John wrote:
Worrying about John wrote: John? John? Anyone at home? You give Scotland a bad name. You\'ll never convince anyone to vote SNP (and I did) if you continue with your racist $hite. Get a life you sad little nobody. Your grammar is likewise pathetic. I\'m sure you went to a good school. Was it approved? Correction: Please put a full stop after the word \"together.\" You then start the new sentence with a capital letter (that\'s the big one). I could correct your grammar all day, but I doubt you\'d learn anything. Earlier you called yourself a proffessional (sic) man. If you were that bl00dy professional, you\'d know how to spell you moron. Keep stacking the shelves you success story.
is that your best shot, you need to try harder
OK...I'll try harder. Look man. We are all in this together. Whether a Scot lives abroad or not is neither here nor there. I'm sure you are aware that one of the best exports Scotland has is its talent. I'm a bit bushed cutting & pasting, but below you will see a list of famous "ex-pat" Scots. Did you know that some people think an ex-pat is someone who used to be from a particular country, and is no more. It is not. It come from the latin "ex patria" meaning form the Country. To call someone a Scottish ex-pat simply means that the person comes from Scotland, so it's a bit naive to use this as a term of abuse. Some ex-pats are abroad because that is where their work sends them. Do you blame them? Famous ex-pat Scots are below. This is a very small list. Apologies to all ex-pats whose names aren't on the list. Alexander Graham Bell (1847 - 1922) : Telephone etc Sir Thomas MacDougall Brisbane (1773 - 1860): Govenor of New South Wales in 1821, and gave his name to the city of Brisbane. He also built an observatory at Parramatta near Sydney and with the help of two astronomers he brought with him, mapped and catalogued more than 7000 stars of the Southern Hemisphere. George Brown (1818 - 1880): Founding father of Canada James Bruce (1730 - 1794): discovered the source of the Abbai or Blue Nile Andrew Carnegie (1835 - 1918): Need I say more? Donald Caskie (1902 - 1983) The Tartan Pimpernell. Minister of the Scot's Kirk in Paris. During World War II he moved to Marseille where he helped British servicemen escape the Nazis to freedom. Robert Dinwiddie (1693 - 1770) Born near Glasgow, he became the Lieutenant-Governor of Virginia. Sir Sandford Fleming (1827 - 1915): Canadian railway engineer, born in Kirkcaldy. Thomas Blake Glover (1838 - 1911) Born in Aberdeenshire, Glover was awarded the highest "Order of the Rising Sun" for his contribution to modernising Japan, through industrialisation and smuggling Japanese students abroad to gain a better education. John Paul Jones (1747 - 1792) Born in Dumfriesshire, he joined the navy and spent time in Russia and France during the French Revolution. Most notably he established the U.S. Navy. David Livingstone (1813 - 1873): You must have heard of him! Sir John Alexander MacDonald (1815 - 1891) First Prime Minister of Canada. Born in Glasgow, died in Ottawa, Canada. He was central to bringing about the confederation of Canada (1867) and the construction of the Canadian Pacific Railway. Sir Alexander Mackenzie (1764 - 1820) Born on the Isle of Lewis. Emigrated to Cananda and worked as a fur trader. The first to journey down the river which bears his name. John Muir (1834 - 1914) Naturalist and Conservationist, born in Dunbar. Founder of the U.S. National Park system and regarded as the father of the modern environmental movement. Sir Roderick Impey Murchison (1792 - 1871) Geologist and Geographer. Born in Tarradale. In 1835 he established the Silurian geological system, and with Sedgwick, the Devonian system. Led a survey of the Russian Empire (1840-1845) and predicted the discovery of gold in Australia. A founder of the Royal Geological Society of London. The Murchison Falls (Uganda) and the Murchison River (Australia) are named after him. Robert Dale Owen (1801 - 1877) Scottish-born U.S. social reformer and anti-slavery campainer. Allan Pinkerton (1819 - 1884) U.S. detective, born in the Gorbals, Glasgow. Pinkerton left Scotland hurriedly in 1842, following his involvement in left-wing protests. In 1852, he formed the first detective agency, in Chicago, which solved a series of train robberies. In 1861, he foiled an assassination plot in Baltimore, while guarding Abraham Lincoln on the way to his inauguration. He was the Head of the U.S. Secret Service 1861 - 1862. Sir William Ramsay (1852 - 1916) Chemist. Ramsay was born in Glasgow and became Professor of Chemistry at Bristol and then University College, London. Chiefly responsible for the discovery of the rare gases Helium, Argon, Neon, Krypton and Xenon. Also worked in radio-activity. He spread scientific interest to other parts of the British Empire, including setting up the Indian Institute for Science at Bangalore. Mary Slessor (1848 - 1915) A Dundee mill girl who became a great missionary in West Africa. Called 'Great Mother' by Nigerians, she provided healthcare and education and stamped out barbaric tribal practices such as human sacrifice. John Witherspoon (1723 - 1794) Clergyman born in Gifford, East Lothian. He became a Minister at Beith, then Paisley. In 1768, he emigrated to U.S.A. to become President of Princeton University (then the College of New Jersey), where he taught and influenced many future leaders of the US. He also helped frame the US Declaration of Independence and was one of the signatories. Witherspoon was also the one who coined the word "Americanism". When you slag off ex-pats, you slag off these people. Give it a rest man!

nah, no use, need to try real hard, not some copy/paste routine, anyone can do that. Give me some of your own stuff, if that is at all possible?

"In my view any voter who refuses to use his or her vote should be subject to a penalty under the law."

Jawohl Mein Fuhrer !!

There's a rumour going around that Jack McConnell has quit the Labour party. Anyone know anything concrete?

Scotland's democracy is in dire straits here. I don't know if these forums are read on behalf of the parties but if it is I will say this to them.

A strong stable coalition is needed to take Scotland forward and restore popular confidence in home rule, which has no doubt hit rock bottom this weekend.

SNP - put the referendum plans on ice until after the next UK election at least if that's what it takes to get partners.

Lib Dems and Tories - Back the SNP Leader in a coalition of parties seeking varying degrees of greater power for Holyrood.

I know the Tories had ruled out coalition deals but there are extenuating circumstances now.

Its vital for the future of Scotland that we consign these fourth rate, self-fellating, shop stewards and the like AKA the Labour Party to the opposition benches where they will fracture and expose themselves as the failures they really are.

I implore you all in this moment of hope not to let Labour drag us back into the darkness.

Allan Wilson is considering a legal challenge against his result. Surely he should have asked for a recount at the time? Or are the Labour party just clutching at straws? I don't think the electorate would tolerate dragging this whole farce out any longer.

CBAberdeen wrote:
Allan Wilson is considering a legal challenge against his result. Surely he should have asked for a recount at the time? Or are the Labour party just clutching at straws? I don't think the electorate would tolerate dragging this whole farce out any longer.

Is this his own initiative or is it a party move? He's not bothered either way how long this drags out he's just thrown a tantrum like a spoilt brat because he won't get to be a minister again.

Iain wrote:

CBAberdeen wrote: Allan Wilson is considering a legal challenge against his result. Surely he should have asked for a recount at the time? Or are the Labour party just clutching at straws? I don\'t think the electorate would tolerate dragging this whole farce out any longer.
Is this his own initiative or is it a party move? He\'s not bothered either way how long this drags out he\'s just thrown a tantrum like a spoilt brat because he won\'t get to be a minister again.

And further to my previous post I'm surprised he could even get his d**k out of his mouth for long enough to call his lawyers!

Here's the link to the beeb story...

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/6629093.stm

Jist of it is that Labour are considering options, but the action would be taken in his own name.

All parties must accept the claim of right. Including the Liberal Democrats, as such they cannot deny independence as an option in a multi way referendum.

http://scotlandonsunday.scotsman.com/index.cfm?id=693282007#comment596191

The Press state that they print what the people want to see. Well now we want to see a press printing positive things about what Scotland can achieve. Rather than continuing with the utter tripe it's been spouting for the last four weeks.

I'm a little tired of reading about the 'Blair' factor (or indeed any other Labour mistakes) being *solely* responsible for the SNP victory. For certain - I think it'd be pertinent for you to remind people about the electoral environment that exists (every day) - for this nationalist party in Scotland. In the run-up to this election, we've had an entire Labour scaremongering campaign, bordering on the absurd. Certain pro-labour tabloids there to amplify such fears and concerns. Claims of 'social ties' dissolving (Mr.Blair/Brown), of the 'Balkanisation' of the UK (Mr.Brown), and the ineviatble Al Qaeda attack (Mr.Reid). Incongruous as ever - frequently this nevertheless amounted to little more than pure, unadulterated, lies. No surprise there then. Of course, it didn't work. A coalition government was *always* going to be the case here, 47-46 is the same as 50-43 - as you well know... ...and as the mass media also know. It's not a 'scoop', nor a surprise. Had the 'score' been 50-43 we would be hearing exactly the same concerns from all and sundry, which I'd like to touch on in this post. I've been very glad to see Mr.Stephen reiterate the fact that the winner is the 'winner'. Incontestable. An incontrovertible fact. Now - the Lib-Dem rationale and strategy, throughout their *entire campaign*, has been about empowering the parliament. Yes? The SNP have said they'll happily offer an option to that end on any referendum paper. Yes? Ultimately, the options would be there, for the people. *In a clear manner*. People make their vote - nay or yah. That's democracy. Not a politicians dastardly (or even 'smug') master plan - rather, a positive chance at term - then a chance in turn for the people to judge that term, and their country's future. If I were really cynical, I would be thinking of Misters Blair and Brown taking their baggage train North again - to wax lyrical about 'true democracy'. If I were being really, really cynical - I'd think that a union think-tank might figure that the best strategy against the SNP would be to not dance with coalition - at all - thus disallowing Mr. Salmond from actually taking the country forward, as they had planned. Ask yourself - ultimately, who would suffer via the position of minority govt. and such a stance? The people. This is no time for selfish and plotted unionist meanderings. There has to be a coalition to allow the winning party to have their chance at coming good on their policies. The Labour party had such an opportunity - a rather extended one - and so dreadfully failed to live up to their own. Frankly, if the Lib-Dems only 'go through the motions' these next few weeks - then it's a slap-in-the-face for democracy. I would also suggest this would be an entirely unwise position for Labour to adopt. Thinking back to some of the scenes during those long, painful hours when the results stuttered forth... ...if they want to create a schism in the country - a *real* rupture - a *true* separation - that would be exactly the way to do it. Finally - before any unionist comes on barking about the 'legitimate' nature of a Lab-Lib coalition - I beg to differ. Unionists you may be - but create and control your campaign based on your own distinctive *political principles* you did. Enough of that nonsense. Instead, both Labour and Liberals should take a wee step back and really take in the weight of the opportunities at hand. The juncture at which we find ourselves. Help us make Scotland a better - a *far* better place, than it is just now. At the end of the day, no politician has any mandate to fear the will of the people. The SNP deserve their four years. They deserve their chance. The people, on the day, deserve theirs. That outcome *is* theirs, entirely. With the buzz of a historical night in our ears, lets make this work. Otherwise democracy would reasonably demand 500,000 people on Princes Street. One final point. Shortly before the final result (Mr.Salmond's 'lawn' speech) the Herald Editor suggested he was acting gingerly - waiting to pounce on the no-votes debacle, should the SNP lose, and make the most of it. To my mind, thus far we've heard: - Mr.Salmond clearly state he would accept the winner's position - and respect the people's first choice, whoever that would turn out to be - *before* the election. - From broadcasters during the counting crisis '...all parties have essentially agreed to accept mutual impact...' Labour - and one Mr.D Alexander are responsible for this mess in the first place. Let's not forget that. Am I finally going to lose that remaining single last shred of respect for the Labour Party? - should they require a 'legal challenge' on the nights proceedings? i.e. '..lets question it, moan some, while the issue is hot..'? The arithmetic, Labour Party, amounts to over 50,000 people. The mesage, Labour Party is quite, quite clear. There is *no* issue - and people are watching. For posterity's sake - again, ** no politician nor political party has a mandate to fear the will of the people **. Anything else is a farce and should be outed as such.

I'm a little tired of reading about the 'Blair' factor (or indeed any other Labour mistakes) being *solely* responsible for the SNP victory.

For certain - I think it'd be pertinent for you to remind people about the electoral environment that exists (every day) - for this nationalist party in Scotland.

In the run-up to this election, we've had an entire Labour scaremongering campaign, bordering on the absurd. Certain pro-labour tabloids there to amplify such fears and concerns. Claims of 'social ties' dissolving (Mr.Blair/Brown), of the 'Balkanisation' of the UK (Mr.Brown), and the ineviatble Al Qaeda attack (Mr.Reid).

Incongruous as ever - frequently this nevertheless amounted to little more than pure, unadulterated, lies. No surprise there then.

Of course, it didn't work.

A coalition government was *always* going to be the case here, 47-46 is the same as 50-43 - as you well know...

...and as the mass media also know.

It's not a 'scoop', nor a surprise. Had the 'score' been 50-43 we would be hearing exactly the same concerns from all and sundry, which I'd like to touch on in this post.

I've been very glad to see Mr.Stephen reiterate the fact that the winner is the 'winner'. Incontestable. An incontrovertible fact.

Now - the Lib-Dem rationale and strategy, throughout their *entire campaign*, has been about empowering the parliament.

Yes?

The SNP have said they'll happily offer an option to that end on any referendum paper.

Yes?

Ultimately, the options would be there, for the people. *In a clear manner*. People make their vote - nay or yah.

That's democracy. Not a politicians dastardly (or even 'smug') master plan - rather, a positive chance at term - then a chance in turn for the people to judge that term, and their country's future.

If I were really cynical, I would be thinking of Misters Blair and Brown taking their baggage train North again - to wax lyrical about 'true democracy'.

If I were being really, really cynical - I'd think that a union think-tank might figure that the best strategy against the SNP would be to not dance with coalition - at all - thus disallowing Mr. Salmond from actually taking the country forward, as they had planned.

Ask yourself - ultimately, who would suffer via the position of minority govt. and such a stance?

The people. This is no time for selfish and plotted unionist meanderings.

There has to be a coalition to allow the winning party to have their chance at coming good on their policies. The Labour party had such an opportunity - a rather extended one - and so dreadfully failed to live up to their own.

Frankly, if the Lib-Dems only 'go through the motions' these next few weeks - then it's a slap-in-the-face for democracy.

I would also suggest this would be an entirely unwise position for Labour to adopt. Thinking back to some of the scenes during those long, painful hours when the results stuttered forth...

...if they want to create a schism in the country - a *real* rupture - a *true* separation - that would be exactly the way to do it.

Finally - before any unionist comes on barking about the 'legitimate' nature of a Lab-Lib coalition - I beg to differ.

Unionists you may be - but create and control your campaign based on your own distinctive *political principles* you did. Enough of that nonsense.

Instead, both Labour and Liberals should take a wee step back and really take in the weight of the opportunities at hand. The juncture at which we find ourselves. Help us make Scotland a better - a *far* better place, than it is just now.

At the end of the day, no politician has any mandate to fear the will of the people. The SNP deserve their four years. They deserve their chance. The people, on the day, deserve theirs. That outcome *is* theirs, entirely.

With the buzz of a historical night in our ears, lets make this work.

Otherwise democracy would reasonably demand 500,000 people on Princes Street.

One final point. Shortly before the final result (Mr.Salmond's 'lawn' speech) the Herald Editor suggested he was acting gingerly - waiting to pounce on the no-votes debacle, should the SNP lose, and make the most of it.

To my mind, thus far we've heard:

- Mr.Salmond clearly state he would accept the winner's position - and respect the people's first choice, whoever that would turn out to be - *before* the election.

- From broadcasters during the counting crisis '...all parties have essentially agreed to accept mutual impact...'

Labour - and one Mr.D Alexander are responsible for this mess in the first place. Let's not forget that.

Am I finally going to lose that remaining single last shred of respect for the Labour Party? - should they require a 'legal challenge' on the nights proceedings?

i.e. '..lets question it, moan some, while the issue is hot..'?

The arithmetic, Labour Party, amounts to over 50,000 people. The mesage, Labour Party is quite, quite clear.

There is *no* issue - and people are watching.

For posterity's sake - again, ** no politician nor political party has a mandate to fear the will of the people **. Anything else is a farce and should be outed as such.

Good news for you all, after Alex and Nicola get the EX PATS BILL through we will all be returning home to our own little tax haven in a secret location where we will not have to pay for services due to having no income to pay tax on and can close all our Swiss bank dealings as we will be given a free hand to do what we we want without paying this really should have taken place years ago and we would not have to becom ex pats due to all those disgusting Labour people in power at the time expecting us to pay our way, off with their heads I say.

AJ wrote:
The Press state that they print what the people want to see. Well now we want to see a press printing positive things about what Scotland can achieve. Rather than continuing with the utter tripe it's been spouting for the last four weeks.

A good way of spinning it considering they actually print what THEY want the people to see

Crieff Resident wrote:
I'm pleased that the Tories have held up, they seem to be doing well in the Borders and are still strong in Perthshire with three list seats and a substantial const. vote. Before the SNP brigade get too ecstatic, remember there are a lot of forward thinking Scottish voters (forget the knuckle draggers!) who want a centre right presence in Scottish politics for a bit of balance.

You are living in a time warp mate. Scotland had enough of your centre right politics when thatcher was in trying to do her longshanks bit. Scotland doesn't want anything to to with conservatism or unionism. You are relegated to the pages of history.

Back in Madrid,

O'er the moon about the election result. Scotland has changed forever. I'm so glad that hope triumphed over fear. Oscar at 7.30am posted this link, which kind sums things up -

http://youtube.com/watch?v=ZAVwukJ7xLM

I'd also like to draw people's attention to this-

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AR98VVgyGF4

And lastly if you are really f*cked off about the election and post election coverage of the election then join the boycott of anti-democratic Scottish media -

http://www.ipetitions.com/petition/anti-Scottish/

Well Scotland has finally awakened! Now there will be a wind of change, in Scotland..yes, but not only here. The reverberation of this result will give added impetus and galvanise those in England who are fed up to the back teeth with the Scottish Kabal who rule over English affairs. Look for a growing tidal wave of those who want England independent, perhaps we will see an ENP who are prepared to fight for Englands green and pleasant land. All power to your elbow brothers you are entitled. As an SNP supporter you have my backing all the way!!!!!

It's early days: lots of rejoicing and congratulating yet to be done; but... I wonder if there's such an idealogical chasm in terms of the economy, foreign policy, social justice, redistribution of wealth, inclusiveness and basic moral values between the average working class labour voter and their equivalent in the SNP? Sometime - soon it must be, the diatribes and bitterness will evaporate to hopefully leave behind a Scotland where we see what is valuable, worthy, and common to the majority. No more anti-english rhetoric; no more "ma dad always voted labour, and so did his dad before him". Many people on here are condemning the Scottish press for their partiality and unfairness, and rightly so; but it's important when adopting the moral high ground not to be pushed towards the petty or the bigoted viewpoints. We owe each other better, and hang the press if they can't stay with us. In the Thatcher years the Scottish nation largely despised the divisive, self-centered, xenophobic policies of the British government, and, try as we might, we couldn't overcome the power of "mondeo man". Perhaps as one, we could have, but that was not to be. Some of us sought to reassert our national distaste for the right-wing tory government by seeking independence, some still thought labour could come back to power. At this time, neither group was right, any socialist will agree with that, indeed New Labour is said by many current labour members to be almost thatcherite, and any SNP person thinking that there's a mandate for independence right now is plain wrong. So where does that leave us? Well, in my own personal experience, many labour supporters are not really against independence - they're more against the SNP - and most (by far) SNP supporters are well left of centre. Makes you wonder? I hope so...becasue Scotland's future depends on like-minded people burying artificial, contrived bitterness. Or is this division Thatchers final and lasting experiment in Scotland?

It's early days: lots of rejoicing and congratulating yet to be done; but...

I wonder if there's such an idealogical chasm in terms of the economy, foreign policy, social justice, redistribution of wealth, inclusiveness and basic moral values between the average working class labour voter and their equivalent in the SNP?

Sometime - soon it must be, the diatribes and bitterness will evaporate to hopefully leave behind a Scotland where we see what is valuable, worthy, and common to the majority. No more anti-english rhetoric; no more "ma dad always voted labour, and so did his dad before him".

Many people on here are condemning the Scottish press for their partiality and unfairness, and rightly so; but it's important when adopting the moral high ground not to be pushed towards the petty or the bigoted viewpoints. We owe each other better, and hang the press if they can't stay with us.

In the Thatcher years the Scottish nation largely despised the divisive, self-centered, xenophobic policies of the British government, and, try as we might, we couldn't overcome the power of "mondeo man". Perhaps as one, we could have, but that was not to be. Some of us sought to reassert our national distaste for the right-wing tory government by seeking independence, some still thought labour could come back to power.

At this time, neither group was right, any socialist will agree with that, indeed New Labour is said by many current labour members to be almost thatcherite, and any SNP person thinking that there's a mandate for independence right now is plain wrong.

So where does that leave us? Well, in my own personal experience, many labour supporters are not really against independence - they're more against the SNP - and most (by far) SNP supporters are well left of centre.

Makes you wonder? I hope so...becasue Scotland's future depends on like-minded people burying artificial, contrived bitterness.

Or is this division Thatchers final and lasting experiment in Scotland?

What do these lyrics mean to labour and snp types? You don't have to take this crap You don't have to sit back and relax You can actually try changing it I know we've always been taught to rely Upon those in authority - But you never know until you try How things just might be - If we came together so strongly Are you gonna try to make this work Or spend your days down in the dirt You see things can change - Yes an' walls can come tumbling down! Governments crack and systems fall 'cause unity is powerful - Lights go out - walls come tumbling down! The competition is a colour tv We're on still pause with the video machine That keep you slave to the h.p. Until the unity is threatend by Those who have and who have not - Those who are with and those who are without And dangle jobs like a donkey's carrot - Until you don't know where you are Are you gonna realize The class war's real and not mythologized And like jericho - you see walls can come tumbling down! Are you gonna be threatend by The public enemies no. 10 - Those who play the power game They take the profits - you take the blame - When they tell you there's no rise in pay Are you gonna try an' make this work Or spend your days down in the dirt - You see things can change - Yes an' walls can come tumbling down! Just wondered.

What do these lyrics mean to labour and snp types?

You don't have to take this crap
You don't have to sit back and relax
You can actually try changing it
I know we've always been taught to rely
Upon those in authority -
But you never know until you try
How things just might be -
If we came together so strongly

Are you gonna try to make this work
Or spend your days down in the dirt
You see things can change -
Yes an' walls can come tumbling down!

Governments crack and systems fall
'cause unity is powerful -
Lights go out - walls come tumbling down!

The competition is a colour tv
We're on still pause with the video machine
That keep you slave to the h.p.

Until the unity is threatend by
Those who have and who have not -
Those who are with and those who are without
And dangle jobs like a donkey's carrot -
Until you don't know where you are

Are you gonna realize
The class war's real and not mythologized
And like jericho - you see walls can come tumbling down!

Are you gonna be threatend by
The public enemies no. 10 -
Those who play the power game
They take the profits - you take the blame -
When they tell you there's no rise in pay

Are you gonna try an' make this work
Or spend your days down in the dirt -
You see things can change -
Yes an' walls can come tumbling down!

Just wondered.

This nonsense of 'people didn't vote for Independence' wont rub.

1 - the SNP campaign wasn't based on Ind. It was based on giving people the choice. i.e. the very heart of politics!
2 - the 'Unionist' parties have their own politic rationale and beliefs. They have their own politics.
3 - If you are suggesting that people are not voting for Independence (wrong assumption - above) then can we conclude that people were *NOT* also voting for unionism?

I swear, the only travesty here - on the back of a fumbled Labour-led election process (which has nevertheless fired back on them) would be the travesty that we're even talking about a Lab/Lib pact again.

I would duly hope the people of Scotland would see the Brown/Menzies Campbell interference direct - realise that such interference is NOT in the interest of the Scottish electorate and take to the streets in their hundreds of thousands.

If Labour continue on this vein, dastardly corrupt ******** that they are, then they will see a real rupture - an *actual* separation of the Scottish people.

But has Scotland REALLY spoken decisively? Does at best a third of the vote for the SNP really say anything historic (and mainly at the expense of now wiped out minority parties)? Two thirds cast a vote for pro-Unionist parties. And the result will be stasis and a very poor advert for self determination and democracy.

Let's ask the question! WHY are broadcasters not forwarding the following point?! WHY are the Lib-Dems, having campaigned on 'empowering the parliament', having seen that the SNP are willing to put the third option on the referendum paper - NOT willing to do this?? If the Union - as Labour would have us told - is as safe as houses - WHAT have they got to eb scared of?? ASK the question BBC! ASK the question Scotsman! ASK the question Herald! ASK the question people of Scotland! ASK! ASK! ASK! ASK! ASK! ASK! ASK! ASK! ASK! ASK! ASK! ASK! ASK! ASK! ASK! ASK! ASK! ASK! ASK! ASK! ASK! ASK! ASK! ASK! ASK! ASK! ASK! ASK! ASK! ASK! ASK! ASK! ASK! ASK! ASK! ASK! ASK! ASK! ASK! ASK! ASK! ASK! ASK! ASK! ASK! Why? Because the Unionist parties are scared of democracy! The SNP are willing to go for it - put it to the PEOPLE - see if this unionist support comes through. WHY WHY WHY not the Labour party etc? I'll tell you why!!! Because they're scared Mr.Salmond does a good job with a progressive Green/Lib/SNP government. They're scared that Scotland will see beyond toilet roll like the Daily Record and The Sun and start to build their self-confidence as the SNP represent us on a global stage! Let's out their cowardly, undemocratic, selfish, anti-Scottish, anti-people poliicies and expose these cretins for the imbeciles they are! It is in OUR hands now - the people of Scotland. ASK! ASK! ASK! ASK! ASK! ASK! ASK! ASK! ASK! ASK! ASK! ASK! ASK! ASK! ASK! ASK! ASK! ASK!

Let's ask the question!

WHY are broadcasters not forwarding the following point?!

WHY are the Lib-Dems, having campaigned on 'empowering the parliament', having seen that the SNP are willing to put the third option on the referendum paper - NOT willing to do this??

If the Union - as Labour would have us told - is as safe as houses - WHAT have they got to eb scared of??

ASK the question BBC!

ASK the question Scotsman!

ASK the question Herald!

ASK the question people of Scotland!

ASK! ASK! ASK! ASK! ASK! ASK! ASK! ASK! ASK! ASK! ASK! ASK! ASK! ASK! ASK! ASK! ASK! ASK! ASK! ASK! ASK! ASK! ASK! ASK! ASK! ASK! ASK! ASK! ASK! ASK! ASK! ASK! ASK! ASK! ASK! ASK! ASK! ASK! ASK! ASK! ASK! ASK! ASK! ASK! ASK!

Why? Because the Unionist parties are scared of democracy!

The SNP are willing to go for it - put it to the PEOPLE - see if this unionist support comes through.

WHY WHY WHY not the Labour party etc?

I'll tell you why!!! Because they're scared Mr.Salmond does a good job with a progressive Green/Lib/SNP government.

They're scared that Scotland will see beyond toilet roll like the Daily Record and The Sun and start to build their self-confidence as the SNP represent us on a global stage!

Let's out their cowardly, undemocratic, selfish, anti-Scottish, anti-people poliicies and expose these cretins for the imbeciles they are!

It is in OUR hands now - the people of Scotland.

ASK! ASK! ASK! ASK! ASK! ASK! ASK! ASK! ASK! ASK! ASK! ASK! ASK! ASK! ASK! ASK! ASK! ASK!

OK I'll ask McFlannel:

What right does HE have to claim the Labour party is "ready to step in" if coalition is not agreed?

HIS party DIDN'T win - WHATVER the onionists try to tell you.

Talk about scrabbling around trying to cling to power.

Is this Scotland or the new Soviet Union??

Democracy is democracy - as long as you vote Labour! And even then we'll take power anyway!

This is looking very similar to elections we had in 2000 and 2004. I implore Mr Salmond and the Scottish people to fight the labour party. After all we are a very good lesson for you, we have had George W. Bush for 6 years!!!
I hope you will learn from our tragic mistake.

In answer to "Sense and worth o'er the Earth", there are very good reasons to suspect that many of the electorate voting for "unionist" parties were not, [italic]per se[/italic] , voting for "unionism" itself. Perhaps coming from where I do, I encounter more labour voters who openly name tradition as their motivation when voting. There are other reasons too: labour have had successes in the economy which contrast with previous UK administrations ( we haven't suffered from the overheating south-east england economy and housing booms battering interest rates to damaging levels for example ); the unions still (largely) support labour and Brown may well be attractive to many Scots voters. It's very possible that Kilmarnock and Loudoun, taken in conjunction with East Ayrshire in the council elections, could demonstrate a model for other parts of the country (Scotland that is, not the misnomered UK as a "country"). Glasgow and Lanarkshire nowadays are similar to our situation in times gone by. Hard working SNP councillors won local respect from many old labour supporters ( note the increase in support from Cumnock and Doon Valley as well as Kilmarnock and Loudoun ) and, despite national media influence, grew to see that SNP policies were more left wing that new labour's. I no longer hear the phrase "Tartan Tories", so somehow the message is getting through. It's also entirely feasible that some SNP voters would look into the policies of a post-independence Scottish labour party to evaluate whether they can break from the Thatcherite UK party's agendas. Perhaps I'm reading the runes wrongly, but I don't think the fear of independence will be enough to unite unionist party voters who have different values on many other important issues. Even if you believe that you can't get a newspaper between the policies of the "centre parties", that certainly doesn't apply to their supporters.

In answer to "Sense and worth o'er the Earth", there are very good reasons to suspect that many of the electorate voting for "unionist" parties were not, per se , voting for "unionism" itself.

Perhaps coming from where I do, I encounter more labour voters who openly name tradition as their motivation when voting. There are other reasons too: labour have had successes in the economy which contrast with previous UK administrations ( we haven't suffered from the overheating south-east england economy and housing booms battering interest rates to damaging levels for example ); the unions still (largely) support labour and Brown may well be attractive to many Scots voters.

It's very possible that Kilmarnock and Loudoun, taken in conjunction with East Ayrshire in the council elections, could demonstrate a model for other parts of the country (Scotland that is, not the misnomered UK as a "country"). Glasgow and Lanarkshire nowadays are similar to our situation in times gone by.

Hard working SNP councillors won local respect from many old labour supporters ( note the increase in support from Cumnock and Doon Valley as well as Kilmarnock and Loudoun ) and, despite national media influence, grew to see that SNP policies were more left wing that new labour's. I no longer hear the phrase "Tartan Tories", so somehow the message is getting through.

It's also entirely feasible that some SNP voters would look into the policies of a post-independence Scottish labour party to evaluate whether they can break from the Thatcherite UK party's agendas.

Perhaps I'm reading the runes wrongly, but I don't think the fear of independence will be enough to unite unionist party voters who have different values on many other important issues. Even if you believe that you can't get a newspaper between the policies of the "centre parties", that certainly doesn't apply to their supporters.

Posted by: Sense and worth o'er the Earth, Scotland on 2:42pm today Let's ask the question! WHY are broadcasters not forwarding the following point?! WHY are the Lib-Dems, having campaigned on 'empowering the parliament', having seen that the SNP are willing to put the third option on the referendum paper - NOT willing to do this?? If the Union - as Labour would have us told - is as safe as houses - WHAT have they got to eb scared of?? ASK the question BBC! ASK the question Scotsman! ASK the question Herald! ASK the question people of Scotland! ASK! ASK! ASK! ASK! ASK! ASK! ASK! ASK! ASK! ASK! ASK! ASK! ASK! ASK! ASK! ASK! ASK! ASK! ASK! ASK! ASK! ASK! ASK! ASK! ASK! ASK! ASK! ASK! ASK! ASK! ASK! ASK! ASK! ASK! ASK! ASK! ASK! ASK! ASK! ASK! ASK! ASK! ASK! ASK! ASK! Why? Because the Unionist parties are scared of democracy! The SNP are willing to go for it - put it to the PEOPLE - see if this unionist support comes through. WHY WHY WHY not the Labour party etc? I'll tell you why!!! Because they're scared Mr.Salmond does a good job with a progressive Green/Lib/SNP government. They're scared that Scotland will see beyond toilet roll like the Daily Record and The Sun and start to build their self-confidence as the SNP represent us on a global stage! Let's out their cowardly, undemocratic, selfish, anti-Scottish, anti-people poliicies and expose these cretins for the imbeciles they are! It is in OUR hands now - the people of Scotland. ASK! ASK! ASK! ASK! ASK! ASK! ASK! ASK! ASK! ASK! ASK! ASK! ASK! ASK! ASK! ASK! ASK! ASK! I've just asked. Wait to see if I get a response.

Posted by: Sense and worth o'er the Earth, Scotland on 2:42pm today

Let's ask the question!
WHY are broadcasters not forwarding the following point?! WHY are the Lib-Dems, having campaigned on 'empowering the parliament', having seen that the SNP are willing to put the third option on the referendum paper - NOT willing to do this?? If the Union - as Labour would have us told - is as safe as houses - WHAT have they got to eb scared of?? ASK the question BBC! ASK the question Scotsman! ASK the question Herald! ASK the question people of Scotland! ASK! ASK! ASK! ASK! ASK! ASK! ASK! ASK! ASK! ASK! ASK! ASK! ASK! ASK! ASK! ASK! ASK! ASK! ASK! ASK! ASK! ASK! ASK! ASK! ASK! ASK! ASK! ASK! ASK! ASK! ASK! ASK! ASK! ASK! ASK! ASK! ASK! ASK! ASK! ASK! ASK! ASK! ASK! ASK! ASK! Why? Because the Unionist parties are scared of democracy! The SNP are willing to go for it - put it to the PEOPLE - see if this unionist support comes through. WHY WHY WHY not the Labour party etc? I'll tell you why!!! Because they're scared Mr.Salmond does a good job with a progressive Green/Lib/SNP government. They're scared that Scotland will see beyond toilet roll like the Daily Record and The Sun and start to build their self-confidence as the SNP represent us on a global stage! Let's out their cowardly, undemocratic, selfish, anti-Scottish, anti-people poliicies and expose these cretins for the imbeciles they are! It is in OUR hands now - the people of Scotland. ASK! ASK! ASK! ASK! ASK! ASK! ASK! ASK! ASK! ASK! ASK! ASK! ASK! ASK! ASK! ASK! ASK! ASK!

I've just asked.
Wait to see if I get a response.

My best day in politics,seeing the SNP win,great to see people clearing out the Westminster betrayers.The pro unionists must take on board,that even the English don't want the union anymore,and thats not an anti Scottish thing.Another point worth remembering is a vote for Labour,will get you a Tory goverment after the next general election,as for Gordon interfering,he will not know which end his a*se hangs after a couple of months,people here are already getting the knives out,coronations are not very popular at the moment.

[quote][bold]Ivan 2[/bold] wrote: Posted by: Sense and worth o'er the Earth, Scotland on 2:42pm today Let's ask the question! WHY are broadcasters not forwarding the following point?! WHY are the Lib-Dems, having campaigned on 'empowering the parliament', having seen that the SNP are willing to put the third option on the referendum paper - NOT willing to do this?? If the Union - as Labour would have us told - is as safe as houses - WHAT have they got to eb scared of?? ASK the question BBC! ASK the question Scotsman! ASK the question Herald! ASK the question people of Scotland! ASK! ASK! ASK! ASK! ASK! ASK! ASK! ASK! ASK! ASK! ASK! ASK! ASK! ASK! ASK! ASK! ASK! ASK! ASK! ASK! ASK! ASK! ASK! ASK! ASK! ASK! ASK! ASK! ASK! ASK! ASK! ASK! ASK! ASK! ASK! ASK! ASK! ASK! ASK! ASK! ASK! ASK! ASK! ASK! ASK! Why? Because the Unionist parties are scared of democracy! The SNP are willing to go for it - put it to the PEOPLE - see if this unionist support comes through. WHY WHY WHY not the Labour party etc? I'll tell you why!!! Because they're scared Mr.Salmond does a good job with a progressive Green/Lib/SNP government. They're scared that Scotland will see beyond toilet roll like the Daily Record and The Sun and start to build their self-confidence as the SNP represent us on a global stage! Let's out their cowardly, undemocratic, selfish, anti-Scottish, anti-people poliicies and expose these cretins for the imbeciles they are! It is in OUR hands now - the people of Scotland. ASK! ASK! ASK! ASK! ASK! ASK! ASK! ASK! ASK! ASK! ASK! ASK! ASK! ASK! ASK! ASK! ASK! ASK! I've just asked. Wait to see if I get a response.[/quote] Well, this is a fair point, but this is more the SNP's fault than the media's. It's up to them to ask questions like that. The media will only, for the most part, mediate; and remember the quality of Scottish journalists is not the highest. They relay on the poiticians and the political thinkers further up the intellectual food-tree for good questions. As a LibDem myself, I can tell you the leadership's stance is not staunchly supported on the ground. The Union is only a priority for a small proportion of Scottish voters, including LibDems. Democracy and the implemention of ourt "bread and butter" policies is much more important than whether or not Westminister rather than Edinburgh controls Scottish foreign policy, and all that stuff. Almost as many LibDem supporters support independence as oppose it, and few would argue against a referendum. It is the entreched and dogmatic political elite who prop-up such anti-democratic stances. Please don't draw any conclusions about the ordinary LibDem activist and voter!

Ivan 2 wrote:
Posted by: Sense and worth o'er the Earth, Scotland on 2:42pm today

Let's ask the question!
WHY are broadcasters not forwarding the following point?! WHY are the Lib-Dems, having campaigned on 'empowering the parliament', having seen that the SNP are willing to put the third option on the referendum paper - NOT willing to do this?? If the Union - as Labour would have us told - is as safe as houses - WHAT have they got to eb scared of?? ASK the question BBC! ASK the question Scotsman! ASK the question Herald! ASK the question people of Scotland! ASK! ASK! ASK! ASK! ASK! ASK! ASK! ASK! ASK! ASK! ASK! ASK! ASK! ASK! ASK! ASK! ASK! ASK! ASK! ASK! ASK! ASK! ASK! ASK! ASK! ASK! ASK! ASK! ASK! ASK! ASK! ASK! ASK! ASK! ASK! ASK! ASK! ASK! ASK! ASK! ASK! ASK! ASK! ASK! ASK! Why? Because the Unionist parties are scared of democracy! The SNP are willing to go for it - put it to the PEOPLE - see if this unionist support comes through. WHY WHY WHY not the Labour party etc? I'll tell you why!!! Because they're scared Mr.Salmond does a good job with a progressive Green/Lib/SNP government. They're scared that Scotland will see beyond toilet roll like the Daily Record and The Sun and start to build their self-confidence as the SNP represent us on a global stage! Let's out their cowardly, undemocratic, selfish, anti-Scottish, anti-people poliicies and expose these cretins for the imbeciles they are! It is in OUR hands now - the people of Scotland. ASK! ASK! ASK! ASK! ASK! ASK! ASK! ASK! ASK! ASK! ASK! ASK! ASK! ASK! ASK! ASK! ASK! ASK!

I've just asked.
Wait to see if I get a response.

Well, this is a fair point, but this is more the SNP's fault than the media's. It's up to them to ask questions like that. The media will only, for the most part, mediate; and remember the quality of Scottish journalists is not the highest. They relay on the poiticians and the political thinkers further up the intellectual food-tree for good questions.

As a LibDem myself, I can tell you the leadership's stance is not staunchly supported on the ground. The Union is only a priority for a small proportion of Scottish voters, including LibDems. Democracy and the implemention of ourt "bread and butter" policies is much more important than whether or not Westminister rather than Edinburgh controls Scottish foreign policy, and all that stuff. Almost as many LibDem supporters support independence as oppose it, and few would argue against a referendum. It is the entreched and dogmatic political elite who prop-up such anti-democratic stances. Please don't draw any conclusions about the ordinary LibDem activist and voter!

Yet again all the Braveheart 'more Scottish than thou' brigade are out in force. Demanding a referendum immediatley after an election where about 35% of the population (who voted) voted for independence parties.

So, we have self proclaimed 'democrats' demanding a vote because roughly 17-18% of the adult population expressed a possible preference for an indepedent Scotland.

But if it'll stop you foaming at the mouth I would agree. Let's have a referendum as soon as possible. Then when you lose you can retreat back to your tartan wallpapered living rooms, wrap yourselves in the slatire and cry into your whiskey over the failure of a Scottish electorate thats just too 'scared' and ill-informed to recognise the self-evident logic of your views.

[quote][bold]Mark McGlynn[/bold] wrote: Yet again all the Braveheart \'more Scottish than thou\' brigade are out in force. Demanding a referendum immediatley after an election where about 35% of the population (who voted) voted for independence parties. So, we have self proclaimed \'democrats\' demanding a vote because roughly 17-18% of the adult population expressed a possible preference for an indepedent Scotland. But if it\'ll stop you foaming at the mouth I would agree. Let\'s have a referendum as soon as possible. Then when you lose you can retreat back to your tartan wallpapered living rooms, wrap yourselves in the slatire and cry into your whiskey over the failure of a Scottish electorate thats just too \'scared\' and ill-informed to recognise the self-evident logic of your views.[/quote] This is why I fail to see a problem. People on the nationalist or pro-independence side want a referendum, and people on the unionist or anti-independence side are pubically confident they'll win. As a neutral, I think a referendum would be great. Whatever the result, it would shut the media up about the issue for a long time, and allow Scots to concentrate on how the country is run. But the opponents of the referendum are not confident of victory. The fear of losing the referendum among the LD party heirarchy is apparently greater than their love of democracy. Let's not swallow the fiction that every election is a referendum on independence. In reality, almost every poll done on the question shows a rough 50-50 split, with the balance lying on the pro-independence side, with huge minority in the Labour and LibDem vote supporting independence, a significant minority of Tories, and a large proportion of SNP supporters opposing it. It could go either way. This is well understood. But arguing that elections are about this is a total fiction, used by political elites to subvert, consciously or not, democratic processes in favour of their own ideological goals. The "only 20 %" support independence crap is for public and media consumption only. No-one actually believes this. Moreover, both they and the SNP are deluded that the independence cause could win a referendum with the might of the British govt and media against it. I just want the issue to go away, so that the nationalists "can retreat back to ... tartan wallpapered living rooms" or the unionists can go wallow in the pride of lost Empire and the lost world of their anglophilic childhoods. Then we can go back to talking about the important stuff! I can only dream.

Mark McGlynn wrote:
Yet again all the Braveheart \'more Scottish than thou\' brigade are out in force. Demanding a referendum immediatley after an election where about 35% of the population (who voted) voted for independence parties.

So, we have self proclaimed \'democrats\' demanding a vote because roughly 17-18% of the adult population expressed a possible preference for an indepedent Scotland.

But if it\'ll stop you foaming at the mouth I would agree. Let\'s have a referendum as soon as possible. Then when you lose you can retreat back to your tartan wallpapered living rooms, wrap yourselves in the slatire and cry into your whiskey over the failure of a Scottish electorate thats just too \'scared\' and ill-informed to recognise the self-evident logic of your views.

This is why I fail to see a problem. People on the nationalist or pro-independence side want a referendum, and people on the unionist or anti-independence side are pubically confident they'll win. As a neutral, I think a referendum would be great. Whatever the result, it would shut the media up about the issue for a long time, and allow Scots to concentrate on how the country is run.

But the opponents of the referendum are not confident of victory. The fear of losing the referendum among the LD party heirarchy is apparently greater than their love of democracy.

Let's not swallow the fiction that every election is a referendum on independence. In reality, almost every poll done on the question shows a rough 50-50 split, with the balance lying on the pro-independence side, with huge minority in the Labour and LibDem vote supporting independence, a significant minority of Tories, and a large proportion of SNP supporters opposing it. It could go either way. This is well understood.

But arguing that elections are about this is a total fiction, used by political elites to subvert, consciously or not, democratic processes in favour of their own ideological goals. The "only 20 %" support independence crap is for public and media consumption only. No-one actually believes this. Moreover, both they and the SNP are deluded that the independence cause could win a referendum with the might of the British govt and media against it.

I just want the issue to go away, so that the nationalists "can retreat back to ... tartan wallpapered living rooms" or the unionists can go wallow in the pride of lost Empire and the lost world of their anglophilic childhoods. Then we can go back to talking about the important stuff! I can only dream.

[quote][bold]dominic m.[/bold] wrote: [quote][bold]Mark McGlynn[/bold] wrote: Yet again all the Braveheart \'more Scottish than thou\' brigade are out in force. Demanding a referendum immediatley after an election where about 35% of the population (who voted) voted for independence parties. So, we have self proclaimed \'democrats\' demanding a vote because roughly 17-18% of the adult population expressed a possible preference for an indepedent Scotland. But if it\'ll stop you foaming at the mouth I would agree. Let\'s have a referendum as soon as possible. Then when you lose you can retreat back to your tartan wallpapered living rooms, wrap yourselves in the slatire and cry into your whiskey over the failure of a Scottish electorate thats just too \'scared\' and ill-informed to recognise the self-evident logic of your views.[/quote] This is why I fail to see a problem. People on the nationalist or pro-independence side want a referendum, and people on the unionist or anti-independence side are pubically confident they'll win. As a neutral, I think a referendum would be great. Whatever the result, it would shut the media up about the issue for a long time, and allow Scots to concentrate on how the country is run. But the opponents of the referendum are not confident of victory. The fear of losing the referendum among the LD party heirarchy is apparently greater than their love of democracy. Let's not swallow the fiction that every election is a referendum on independence. In reality, almost every poll done on the question shows a rough 50-50 split, with the balance lying on the pro-independence side, with huge minority in the Labour and LibDem vote supporting independence, a significant minority of Tories, and a large proportion of SNP supporters opposing it. It could go either way. This is well understood. But arguing that elections are about this is a total fiction, used by political elites to subvert, consciously or not, democratic processes in favour of their own ideological goals. The "only 20 %" support independence crap is for public and media consumption only. No-one actually believes this. Moreover, both they and the SNP are deluded that the independence cause could win a referendum with the might of the British govt and media against it. I just want the issue to go away, so that the nationalists "can retreat back to ... tartan wallpapered living rooms" or the unionists can go wallow in the pride of lost Empire and the lost world of their anglophilic childhoods. Then we can go back to talking about the important stuff! I can only dream.[/quote] To be honest I've never been a fan of Empire (although Scots were up to their necks in it) nor did I have an anglophilic childhood. And I agree that we should be talking about the 'important stuff'. The problem is that a pressure group masquerading as a political party has poisened the political well in Scotland. A referendum would at least put the issue to rest. As for polls, well they can be manipulated in a variety of ways. The only real test of public opinion is the ballot box. If over 50% of the Scottish electorate want an independent Scotland they have had ample opportunity to vote for it. So far they have failed to do so. As for elections being about a variety of issues. Well,that might be true of a UK election and I stress might. But if the SNP cannot get people to vote for them when all they are about is Scottish independence then it does not suggest independence is a driving issue. The real laugh though is, having failed to get people to vote for independence they then demand a second go under the guise of a referendum and claim that's democracy! I don't support a referendum because I swallow the SNP rhetoric on this issue. I support it because it might finally give the Mel Gibson Historical Accuracy Society a reality check. Then we can actually get back to discussing politics. Then agin like you said. I can only dream.

dominic m. wrote:

Mark McGlynn wrote: Yet again all the Braveheart \'more Scottish than thou\' brigade are out in force. Demanding a referendum immediatley after an election where about 35% of the population (who voted) voted for independence parties. So, we have self proclaimed \'democrats\' demanding a vote because roughly 17-18% of the adult population expressed a possible preference for an indepedent Scotland. But if it\'ll stop you foaming at the mouth I would agree. Let\'s have a referendum as soon as possible. Then when you lose you can retreat back to your tartan wallpapered living rooms, wrap yourselves in the slatire and cry into your whiskey over the failure of a Scottish electorate thats just too \'scared\' and ill-informed to recognise the self-evident logic of your views.
This is why I fail to see a problem. People on the nationalist or pro-independence side want a referendum, and people on the unionist or anti-independence side are pubically confident they'll win. As a neutral, I think a referendum would be great. Whatever the result, it would shut the media up about the issue for a long time, and allow Scots to concentrate on how the country is run. But the opponents of the referendum are not confident of victory. The fear of losing the referendum among the LD party heirarchy is apparently greater than their love of democracy. Let's not swallow the fiction that every election is a referendum on independence. In reality, almost every poll done on the question shows a rough 50-50 split, with the balance lying on the pro-independence side, with huge minority in the Labour and LibDem vote supporting independence, a significant minority of Tories, and a large proportion of SNP supporters opposing it. It could go either way. This is well understood. But arguing that elections are about this is a total fiction, used by political elites to subvert, consciously or not, democratic processes in favour of their own ideological goals. The "only 20 %" support independence crap is for public and media consumption only. No-one actually believes this. Moreover, both they and the SNP are deluded that the independence cause could win a referendum with the might of the British govt and media against it. I just want the issue to go away, so that the nationalists "can retreat back to ... tartan wallpapered living rooms" or the unionists can go wallow in the pride of lost Empire and the lost world of their anglophilic childhoods. Then we can go back to talking about the important stuff! I can only dream.

To be honest I've never been a fan of Empire (although Scots were up to their necks in it) nor did I have an anglophilic childhood.

And I agree that we should be talking about the 'important stuff'.

The problem is that a pressure group masquerading as a political party has poisened the political well in Scotland. A referendum would at least put the issue to rest.

As for polls, well they can be manipulated in a variety of ways. The only real test of public opinion is the ballot box.

If over 50% of the Scottish electorate want an independent Scotland they have had ample opportunity to vote for it. So far they have failed to do so.

As for elections being about a variety of issues. Well,that might be true of a UK election and I stress might. But if the SNP cannot get people to vote for them when all they are about is Scottish independence then it does not suggest independence is a driving issue. The real laugh though is, having failed to get people to vote for independence they then demand a second go under the guise of a referendum and claim that's democracy!

I don't support a referendum because I swallow the SNP rhetoric on this issue. I support it because it might finally give the Mel Gibson Historical Accuracy Society a reality check.

Then we can actually get back to discussing politics. Then agin like you said. I can only dream.

I hope all the leaders of the Unionist parties, and their campaign teams, feel thoroughly ashamed of themselves? They should be pouring over every aspect of how a nominally minority party like the SNP, with limited financial resources, still managed to produce such a slick, and highly effective campaign? Instead of considering 'sour grapes' legal appeals, and calling for the elections to be re-run, Unionists should just be glad that 142,000 votes were rejected, or on the contrary, Scotland might well have had a majority Nationalist government! According to newspaper reports, the SNP made sure that all its supporters and potential voters in its own constituencies, especially finely-balanced Gordon, were fully informed in how to complete the two ballot papers! This is what you call old-fashion party organisation! Why on earth did Unionist parties not also insure their supporters in the constituencies were personally made fully aware of these simple changes? It is incredulous that in 30 short years the Nationalists have moved from party of protest to potential party of government! Scottish Unionists, especially the indigenous Conservatives, will have to completely reconsider their political strategy, or in another 30 years Scotland will undoubtedly be an independent sovereign state? The realpolitik of the future is that all Unionist parties will have to reposition themselves in preparation for this inevitable outcome! Lachie Todd

I hope all the leaders of the Unionist parties, and their campaign teams, feel thoroughly ashamed of themselves? They should be pouring over every aspect of how a nominally minority party like the SNP, with limited financial resources, still managed to produce such a slick, and highly effective campaign? Instead of considering 'sour grapes' legal appeals, and calling for the elections to be re-run, Unionists should just be glad that 142,000 votes were rejected, or on the contrary, Scotland might well have had a majority Nationalist government! According to newspaper reports, the SNP made sure that all its supporters and potential voters in its own constituencies, especially finely-balanced Gordon, were fully informed in how to complete the two ballot papers! This is what you call old-fashion party organisation! Why on earth did Unionist parties not also
insure their supporters in the constituencies were personally made fully aware of these simple changes? It is incredulous that in 30 short years the Nationalists have moved from party of protest to potential party of government! Scottish Unionists, especially the indigenous Conservatives, will have to completely reconsider their political strategy, or in another 30 years Scotland will undoubtedly be an independent sovereign state? The realpolitik of the future is that all Unionist parties will have to reposition themselves in preparation for this inevitable outcome! Lachie Todd

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